The Scientific evidence is in: 9/11 was an inside job

[Looger]

i close my participation in this thread by saying, i'm not here to debate the facts and theories, i'm here to say i have videos and documentation that people interested may not have seen. if anyone wants a copy, let me know.

i repeat this because clearly that message has not gotten through, it's not my job or inclination to take on cp here.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Looger

i close my participation in this thread by saying, i'm not here to debate the facts and theories, i'm here to say i have videos and documentation that people interested may not have seen. if anyone wants a copy, let me know.

i repeat this because clearly that message has not gotten through, it's not my job or inclination to take on cp here.

Well it's more that your message hasn't gotten through all of the facts.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Looger

i close my participation in this thread by saying, i'm not here to debate the facts and theories, .

Weren't you the guy who started this thread with the challenge:

"there is no doubt here people."

Take a look at this thread again. Its full of skeptics. Real ones. They didn't take your declaration at face value.

i repeat this because clearly that message has not gotten through,

Well, which is it? You're not here to debate "facts and theories" or that you have a message? Is there still "no doubt?"

Cowperson

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by undergradflame

How in the hell does AF1 get shot out of the sky over US soil. Bush wasen't theatend, the reason he looked spooked at the school is because he's a idiot and he had no idea what to do in the siduation. But how in gods green earth can you think that AF1 would get shot down, by rouge american generals and CIA types.

I watched the news that day and everyone was pretty spooked that air force one was a target. They said it over and over during the first few hours. The "threat" was the reason they gave for the plane flying around for 9(?) hours before it actually got back to Washington.

I don't believe in this conspiracy business and I know not of "rouge generals and CIA types", but on that day pretty much anything seemed possible.

[Displaced Flames fan]

If we don't agree with you we can 'go back to sleep', which is a shot at our intellect.

Don't pretend to be an innocent peddler of information. You threw out a pre-emptive strike before a single person read your thread.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by arsenal

Hey, I have a bunker I can sell you.

Yeah, that at be right up your alley.

[Vulcan]

I don't like your theory Looger but kudos for stepping up to the plate.

[Nehkara]

While I am likely one of the people who likes the Bush administration the least, and while I believe they have been very deceitful and carried out many other secret operations that were terrible... I do not believe that there is the capacity to carry out such a large and brutal attack on your own people without it somehow falling apart before anything happens.

Now... there is clear evidence the government had knowledge of threats prior to 9/11 and that they did not act on them. That alone lays some blame on their shoulders. There are also still many questions that remain unanswered about the disaster but again, I don't believe it was committed by the US government in any form.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Looger

the most compelling evidence is william rodriguez, last civilian pulled from the rubble. he's a 9/11 hero, went back in - he was the head janitor and had the master key, took the firemen up the stairs to rescue people.

he was toured around by the media and the administration, plenty of pics of him with dubya, problem is he wouldn't shut up aboot the explosion in the basement before the plane hit. so he disappeared from the media and administration press quickly.

he was in the basement when an explosive went off down there, to weaken the main supports.

I may be off my rocker here, but I'll give credit to OBL for masterminding a simultaneous hijacking of 4 planes. To do that is a little more difficult than planting a bomb in a building.

Think about it. How do you hijack a plane, AND have that plane flown into a building? You need to hire someone that is willing to take pilot lessons, and to carry out the hijacking and hte operation of the plane.

Guys like that are probably a little harder to come by than a janitor who gets a job at teh building and casually looks hte other way as the UPS truck is driven down to the basement.






I love this quote from IFF:

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

See my problem? Unless these guys are actually, well--very stupid--the conspiracy doesn't make sense: it doesn't achieve what we know to be their goals. And if they are that stupid, there's no way they were smart enough to pull it off.

Brilliant IFF, I couldn't agree more...

[4X4]

RE: Nehkara's last post...

Agreed. And furthermore, does anyone actually think that a man can get to be president and have those kinds of plans and thoughts? I mean, to kill 3000 of your fellow citizens, to have the capacity to do it, must have come out at some point in their life.
Somewhere along the way, the person (Bush, Cheney, whoever was the mastermind) must have inadvertantly expressed his evil to the wrong person, and that would have to have gone public at some point.

I just don't believe that the son of an ex-president grows up with this kind of plan in mind. And I believe even less that he attains his own presidency, and then does a 180 and turns on the people he was just 'elected' by.

Of course, I have been accused of being too altruistic before.


Edit...

Nehkara's other point...

I'm going to come off as an apologist here, but here goes. Did the government know that there was a threat? Maybe. Do you think the government just ignored it? I doubt that.
I would venture that they knew there was some kind of threat, and that they were trying to kill the threat without alarming citizens.

Hell, Bush's first campaign was half based on missle defence. He's the last guy that wants this kind of egg on his face.

"OK folks. We are officially safe from foreign missles"

"Uh, Mr. President? We were just attacked by our own passenger planes. Nice defence program"

"D'OH!"

[Nehkara]

Originally Posted by 4X4

RE: Nehkara's last post...

Agreed. And furthermore, does anyone actually think that a man can get to be president and have those kinds of plans and thoughts? I mean, to kill 3000 of your fellow citizens, to have the capacity to do it, must have come out at some point in their life.
Somewhere along the way, the person (Bush, Cheney, whoever was the mastermind) must have inadvertantly expressed his evil to the wrong person, and that would have to have gone public at some point.

I just don't believe that the son of an ex-president grows up with this kind of plan in mind. And I believe even less that he attains his own presidency, and then does a 180 and turns on the people he was just 'elected' by.

Of course, I have been accused of being too altruistic before.


Edit...

Nehkara's other point...

I'm going to come off as an apologist here, but here goes. Did the government know that there was a threat? Maybe. Do you think the government just ignored it? I doubt that.
I would venture that they knew there was some kind of threat, and that they were trying to kill the threat without alarming citizens.

Hell, Bush's first campaign was half based on missle defence. He's the last guy that wants this kind of egg on his face.

"OK folks. We are officially safe from foreign missles"

"Uh, Mr. President? We were just attacked by our own passenger planes. Nice defence program"

"D'OH!"

I don't know all the details but I believe the 9/11 commission or whatever it was called, said that there was a threat and it was basically ignored. For a long time the US seemed to have the same problem as teenagers driving cars... the "it will never happen to me" syndrome. Unfortunately the US is a country and not a pimple-ridden kid and therefore the results of this kind of ignorance were significantly more destructive.

You would think if there was a threat they'd at least increase airline security... but nope.

[photon]

Video's and documentation are not proof, especially when those videos are full of half truths and appeal to the emotions rather than the mind.

CTs point to these videos like gospel.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

If we don't agree with you we can 'go back to sleep', which is a shot at our intellect.

Don't pretend to be an innocent peddler of information. You threw out a pre-emptive strike before a single person read your thread.

No, I just think that he assumed that we are all umemployed like him.

[Josh]

I managed to find a picture of Looger, it was taken off his webcam.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

You forgot to add (d) .... "and here's my CD you can buy with all that proof to show your friends."

Looks like you bought a lot of stuff Looger.

I love it when people of a like mind can get together so they can agree with themselves and sell each other products.

Sounds like the same business that Ann Coulter is in.

Cowperson

And UFO abductees.

[Regorium]

Still some of it makes you wonder.

A highly regarded demolition expert said in the media "There is no way that aircraft caused the building to fall like that, it must've been a planned demoltion". Ten days later, he comes out and says "Oh yeah, this is completely natural. Aircrafts could've done that!" - What happened in those ten days?

How can you possibly generate enough heat from ONE explosion to heat almost 60,000 tons of steel to it's critical temperature? (Steel is HIGHLY conductive. Heat from one part of a steel beam will transfer to another extremely rapidly)

How is it possible for steel to catastrohically fail THAT quickly? If you've taken materials courses, you would know steel is an extremely good building tool because of how elastic it is. You would see extreme amounts of structural damage, sagging, buckling, and basically a SLOW painful death, instead of just a fast collapse into the ground. And this happened THREE times that day, not just once.

I'm an aspiring engineer and I just feel sorry for those people that designed the WTC. It's really a work of art and it's too bad to see it destroyed whether by the terrorists or otherwise. But if it's just by that one plane, then I question their engineering credentials. Usually you build to at LEAST 3 times working load. Apparently they claim 600% redundancy. Meaning this steel would've had to be heated to over 800 degrees C, spread over a large volume of steel (again, due to the aforementioned heat conducting properties of steel).

Anyways, there's lots of math from various sites. Video documentaries and eyewitness accounts that support this theory. But we all know how reputable those are. I don't believe in the illuminati, and all the religious number hoopla (9+3+7+4+1+1 = OMFG WE'RE DEAD). But I'm a firm believe in science and engineering. It just doesn't make sense.

Now. I'm not here to talk motive, or to accuse the US government of doing anything. I just want to see if anyone has any other insight to the SCIENCE behind the crash.

(I'll dig up some links to the math if anyone wants)

[photon]

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/freefall.htm

And he talks about the only peer reviewed (ie based on fact and science, reviewed by other peers, not random questions) paper on the topic:

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/paper.htm

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by photon

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/freefall.htm

And he talks about the only peer reviewed (ie based on fact and science, reviewed by other peers, not random questions) paper on the topic:

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/paper.htm

Well, if anything will settle this once and for all, that will. I enjoyed the writer's analogy to other pseudo-science theories that are out there:

there are CT sites which attack this paper but not one person has yet to disprove it's hypothesis professionally. There are still people attacking the theory of evolution. Anyone can attack, not many can produce a paper to back it up. Just as there is no "Theory of intelligent design" except in christian web sites there are no alternatives to this paper other than in CT sites and books.

What this analogy shows to me is that what's crucial is your methodology. If you're constantly attacking assertions made by others, and haven't produced original peer-reviewed science of your own, then you may be a pseudoscientist.

[Regorium]

I read through that site. It seems legit, though they make JUST as many preposterous claims as the conspiracists. There's a lot of pseudo-math (like the conspiracists), lots of conjecture (Yeah the plumes of dust were obviously made because the building was a syringe, pushing out everything 20 floors below) and all that. We'll never know what REALLY happened.

They also haven't answered the question of why NONE of the tapes of the Pentagon crash has been released. The FBI was at the gas station within MINUTES of the crash, and seized the tape before the employees even knew what happened. Ditto with the Sheraton, and the traffic cameras.

On one side...A 757 can take down the WTC. But the same 757 only leaves a 15 ft hole in the pentagon, and a 15 ft diameter, 20 ft deep crater in the field. (oh, and both planes vaporized upon impact. even the titanium-steel engines couldn't make a dent into the pentagon walls).

I have no doubt the planes struck the WTC, and there's so many factors that the site MIGHT be correct and the structural integrity was compromised. But, what happened to the pentagon? One of the most heavily guarded places in the states doesn't have a good angle on all sides of the building? Let's see that tape. Don't say it's because we'd be scarred by it. We've seen the WTC crashes OVER and OVER again.

8 black boxes. Only 4 were ever found, and 1 (Flight 93 voice recorder - which I think is fake) was ever released. A black box (made out of the BEST man-made alloys) could not survive the explosion. A passport held by one of the "hijackers" survived the blast, the collapse of the towers with no damage at all (none of the pages were burnt). Wow, I want my **** made out of whatever that passport is made out of.

NINE of the hijackers first named by the FBI are confirmed alive. The FBI then retracted it's statements "Uhh, we're not exactly sure".

2.5 million dollars profited through insider trading. 1.4 billion dollars worth of gold disappeared. 2.2 billion dollars in insurance payouts. Seems pretty good incentive here. But I digress.

One thing is FOR SURE. The Bush administration has used 9/11 to take away powers from the judicial arm as well as Congress. He has used it to start wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. He has used it to take away our privacy (see NSA). Not sure if I REALLY want to keep researching this topic and find out the truth, who knows what else he's capable of.

If you have time...
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...93973848835726
1h 20 minute documentary.

[transplant99]

Laughable.....not much more to say.

Now before certain folks go flying off the handle...this is strictly my opinion, which is still allowed last I knew.