Does Sven have a future with the Flames?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Lundmark played 295 NHL games in his career, according to hockeydb

He was also drafted 9th overall. Its not a bad comparison.

[Five-hole]

I don't get why people seem almost to be cheering against him. A guy with the skill and potential he has could be a huge asset down the road, and people seem to be gleefully writing him off. Why?

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

I don't get why people seem almost to be cheering against him. A guy with the skill and potential he has could be a huge asset down the road, and people seem to be gleefully writing him off. Why?

Disappointment due to unreasonably high expectations, combined with impatience.

I haven't been following the Sven debate much so I can't assess your statement that posters are "gleefully writing him off", but if true that is absurd. Why would any Flames fan be happy that a prospect isn't doing well. Weird.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

I don't get why people seem almost to be cheering against him. A guy with the skill and potential he has could be a huge asset down the road, and people seem to be gleefully writing him off. Why?

I agree with you and I don't get it either. Been seeing it from some posters since last year and especially during training camp. Seems so strange how some are so quick to bash Sven for whatever reason. Gleefully writing him off is exactly how I see it too. Like they don't want him to succeed.

Bizarre stuff indeed.

Really hope Baertschi is able to put it together, gets called up, is used in a better suited role than previous and he never looks back.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

I don't get why people seem almost to be cheering against him. A guy with the skill and potential he has could be a huge asset down the road, and people seem to be gleefully writing him off. Why?

Some people post on this forum to express what they want to happen. Others post here to express what they think will happen. Those two fundamentally different approaches are responsible for much of the friction here. But they're both legitimate perspectives, and nobody is going to change the way they follow sports because it annoys someone on the internet.

I want all of our prospects to succeed to their full potential. However, I know that unless they collectively defy all odds, half of Flames prospects will be busts, and most of the ones who do make it in the NHL will be depth players.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Some people post on this forum to express what they want to happen. Others post here to express what they think will happen. Those two fundamentally different approaches are responsible for much of the friction here. But they're both legitimate perspectives, and nobody is going to change the way they follow sports because it annoys someone on the internet.

I want all of our prospects to succeed to their full potential. However, I know that unless they collectively defy all odds, half of Flames prospects will be busts, and most of the ones who do make it in the NHL will be depth players.

Fair enough. But there's a third type of post, which I believe is posturing for an "I told you so" later. That's disappointing.

Regarding your second category of posters: no one should begrudge Flames fans for having a little baggage and not getting hopes up when it comes to prospects. We went 20 years without many of them turning into anything at all, much less impact players, and were disappointed much more often than not. But that has very obviously turned around lately and I think it's safe again to have hope about our prospects. There just doesn't seem to be much for Sven and I find that odd as a former 13th overall pick, who, in spite of some road bumps, has shown some very promising glimpses.

[GioforPM]

I think there's some big time oversensitivity among people who seem to have emotionally banked on Sven succeeding. This thread asks a legit question - will he be a long term Flame? If people simply asid "no" they'd be rightly criticized for failing to back up their opinion. But if they say why they think Sven won't be a Flame (or maybe even an NHLer) they are "bashing" or cheering against Sven. The same people who say "Sven needs his confidence boosted - then he'll be great" attack posters who question Sven's attitude as arm-chair psychiatrists.

I do think there's also a bit of "I told you so" in some posts that are negative. But frankly, I think it's a backlash against some of the over the top support for mediocre plays by Sven, the rationalization for poor play and criticism of how he has been played by management and coaches.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Really hope Baertschi is able to put it together, gets called up, is used in a better suited role than previous and he never looks back.

This is the thing about Baertschi.
Gaudreau worked his way up the lineup, (including press box time).
Jooris worked his way up the lineup, (including press box time).
Granlund worked his way up the lineup, (including press box time).

When Sven can't, apologists blame the coach and the role he has been forced into.
Bottom line is working your way up is how this happens. And, so far, Baertschi has not been able to do so, where others (who have now passed Sven) have.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think there's some big time oversensitivity among people who seem to have emotionally banked on Sven succeeding. This thread asks a legit question - will he be a long term Flame? If people simply asid "no" they'd be rightly criticized for failing to back up their opinion. But if they say why they think Sven won't be a Flame (or maybe even an NHLer) they are "bashing" or cheering against Sven. The same people who say "Sven needs his confidence boosted - then he'll be great" attack posters who question Sven's attitude as arm-chair psychiatrists.

I do think there's also a bit of "I told you so" in some posts that are negative. But frankly, I think it's a backlash against some of the over the top support for mediocre plays by Sven, the rationalization for poor play and criticism of how he has been played by management and coaches.

No "I told you so" from me. I liked the pick at the time and followed him in his last year of junior which was exceptional. He was at the time the first prospect to get excited about since Phaneuf. Then came the rumblings about him not being happy about having to go to rookie camp and the way he handled being benched by Hartley negatively. You can overlook that stuff if the guy is producing like Gadreau but his play simply hasn't been that great in the NHL. His ppg as an NHLer isn't terrible by any means for a player of his age but for me it's how invisible he can be at times and how weak he can be on the puck. He just doesn't seem to have the confidence to be able to just take the puck up the ice and do his thing like Gadreau. The mental part of the game really can separate the great players from the also-rans and I don't like what I have seen from him mentally to date.

That said I feel that can be corrected and it's just a matter of confidence which is why I am all for him remaining in the AHL for the rest of the season to get a regular top 6 shift to cultivate his maturity from a junior into a professional.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Some people post on this forum to express what they want to happen. Others post here to express what they think will happen.

I think it's a percentage of the latter group that are largely responsible for bringing discussions down on an ongoing basis.

There are a moderate number of people who state what they think will happen about a player or situation with their tone bordering on arrogance. Then, from that point forward, their primary concern seems to be hoping and praying that's the way it turns out so they can save face / have the satisfaction of appearing in the right on the internet.

Baertschi is a perfect example. I honestly believe the loudest Sven detractors are just spouting off because they've maintained that stance all along and now just want to appear correct for bragging rights or to avoid admitting they were being premature / ignorant.

The most extreme example is that guy who wrote off Backlund. Now his primary agenda on the site is to avoid admitting he was out to lunch, and the topic has turned into a borderline obsession for him.

It's that process of passing off an opinion about how someone or something will develop, and then having ego playing a primary role in turning that subject into a borderline obsession.

People do it with Baertschi, Jankowski, and a wide array of topics, but it's far and away the most insufferable thing about sports message boards.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

People do it with Baertschi, Jankowski, and a wide array of topics, but it's far and away the most insufferable thing about sports message boards.

Well for every Gaudreau this organization has seen there's been about 30 Ryan Howse's. You can understand how long time fans no longer get overly giddy about prospects until they actually become NHL producers. It's pretty sad when I look at the Flames prospects we used to talk and be excited about ten years ago. I don't have any problem with fans being excited about the potential of Jankowski, Baertschi, etc but until they do something in the NHL they haven't done or proven anything and potential can only take you so far and it turns to downright annoying when some fans start blaming coaching and management for the players failures so it can be a two way street.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well for every Gaudreau this organization has seen there's been about 30 Ryan Howse's. You can understand how long time fans no longer get overly giddy about prospects until they actually become NHL producers. It's pretty sad when I look at the Flames prospects we used to talk and be excited about ten years ago. I don't have any problem with fans being excited about the potential of Jankowski, Baertschi, etc but until they do something in the NHL they haven't done or proven anything and potential can only take you so far and it turns to downright annoying when some fans start blaming coaching and management for the players failures so it can be a two way street.

You missed what I'm saying. It's not people being critical that's the problem.

It's those that turn that into an agenda. They become "That guy" that's always the first and loudest one to shout down certain players or topics, and then do it over and over and over like they're the primary representative of downplaying that notion forced to pipe up with their tired routine every time that player or topic is mentioned.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Getting excited about prospects is fun.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I think it's a percentage of the latter group that are largely responsible for bringing discussions down on an ongoing basis.

There are a moderate number of people who state what they think will happen about a player or situation with their tone bordering on arrogance. Then, from that point forward, their primary concern seems to be hoping and praying that's the way it turns out so they can save face / have the satisfaction of appearing in the right on the internet.

Baertschi is a perfect example. I honestly believe the loudest Sven detractors are just spouting off because they've maintained that stance all along and now just want to appear correct for bragging rights or to avoid admitting they were being premature / ignorant.

The most extreme example is that guy who wrote off Backlund. Now his primary agenda on the site is to avoid admitting he was out to lunch, and the topic has turned into a borderline obsession for him.

It's that process of passing off an opinion about how someone or something will develop, and then having ego playing a primary role in turning that subject into a borderline obsession.

People do it with Baertschi, Jankowski, and a wide array of topics, but it's far and away the most insufferable thing about sports message boards.

To be fair, it doesn't look good for a prospect to seemingly regress/plateau and for players drafted after him to pass him on the depth chart.

[Gaskal]

Sven with mojo = Sven that stepped right in and started scoring.
To me the talent is there. He just needs his mojo is all.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

To be fair, it doesn't look good for a prospect to seemingly regress/plateau and for players drafted after him to pass him on the depth chart.

Where did I suggest that it does?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I think it's a percentage of the latter group that are largely responsible for bringing discussions down on an ongoing basis.

There are a moderate number of people who state what they think will happen about a player or situation with their tone bordering on arrogance. Then, from that point forward, their primary concern seems to be hoping and praying that's the way it turns out so they can save face / have the satisfaction of appearing in the right on the internet.

Baertschi is a perfect example. I honestly believe the loudest Sven detractors are just spouting off because they've maintained that stance all along and now just want to appear correct for bragging rights or to avoid admitting they were being premature / ignorant.

The most extreme example is that guy who wrote off Backlund. Now his primary agenda on the site is to avoid admitting he was out to lunch, and the topic has turned into a borderline obsession for him.

It's that process of passing off an opinion about how someone or something will develop, and then having ego playing a primary role in turning that subject into a borderline obsession.

People do it with Baertschi, Jankowski, and a wide array of topics, but it's far and away the most insufferable thing about sports message boards.

I doubt anyone here is cheering for any of those guys to fail. Most prospects fail. If you're going to be a top 6 NHL forward, rarely are you going to struggle coming up at any point. It happens, but its rare.

I can't say for sure, but I'd guess most of the people down on Sven were right on the bandwagon when he tore it up in the WHL after being drafted (and then up with the Flames on the emergency call-up). But since then he's stalled for over a year and that's usually a death knell for a prospects chances if he's going to be a top 6 guy at the NHL level.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well for every Gaudreau this organization has seen there's been about 30 Ryan Howse's. You can understand how long time fans no longer get overly giddy about prospects until they actually become NHL producers. It's pretty sad when I look at the Flames prospects we used to talk and be excited about ten years ago. I don't have any problem with fans being excited about the potential of Jankowski, Baertschi, etc but until they do something in the NHL they haven't done or proven anything and potential can only take you so far and it turns to downright annoying when some fans start blaming coaching and management for the players failures so it can be a two way street.

I agree with most of your statements here, but I'll be blunt: Baertschi was the first prospect I was excited about since Phaneuf. Before Monahan and Bennett, he was also the highest 1st round pick we'd had since Phaneuf. None of those other players drafted in that time were ever projected to be top 6 forwards or top 4 defensemen. He then went on to post unreal numbers in the WHL his next year and followed it up with a 5 game call up where he looked ready to contribute that day, at least offensively.

If anyone gave me unrealistic expectations for Sven, it was Sven. He performed at an incredibly high level and projected to be a 1st line player in the NHL. The fact that just a few years later, not only is he not a 1st line NHL player, but if he even makes it, which isn't a sure thing at all, it will be at best a 2nd line winger, well that's pretty disappointing. That's not getting overly excited about a prospect on my part, that's following his progression and his pedigree, and then putting realistic expectations on where he should be at certain points in his timeline.

If Baertschi has his detractors now, and I'm not necessarily even one of them, it's likely because he simply hasn't come close to living up to his potential, while some guys like Jooris, and to a lesser extent Bouma, kicked down the door to the NHL when they got their chances. I have a greater amount of respect for guys that make the most of the opportunities they're given.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

You missed what I'm saying. It's not people being critical that's the problem.

It's those that turn that into an agenda. They become "That guy" that's always the first and loudest one to shout down certain players or topics, and then do it over and over and over like they're the primary representative of downplaying that notion forced to pipe up with their tired routine every time that player or topic is mentioned.

As opposed to guys that have an agenda to bring out the pom poms and fiercely defend the player like he has a vested interest? We all know some of the loudest posters when it comes to Sven are pro-Baertschi so I just find the comment a little odd. Two sides to ever story and both can be equally annoying to others. At the end of the day all the comments I see for and against are totally fair at this point and don't see any reason to disparage either side from posting their opinion.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

To be fair, it doesn't look good for a prospect to seemingly regress/plateau and for players drafted after him to pass him on the depth chart.

You mean Gaudreau? Gaudreau has passed most of the NHL on the depth chart. He's producing at nearly a PPG pace in his rookie season. That's incredibly rare and his point production makes him a top-6 player on just about every team. You can't be disappointed with Baertschi because Gaudreau passed him. Be excited or disappointed with Baertschi for who he is or isn't, not for not being Johnny Gaudreau.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well for every Gaudreau this organization has seen there's been about 30 Ryan Howse's. You can understand how long time fans no longer get overly giddy about prospects until they actually become NHL producers.

Same thing. If Johnny Gaudreau is your expectation for 21 year old wingers, you're going to spend the vast majority of your time as a sports fan disappointed. For every Gaudreau any organization sees, that same organization sees 30 Ryan Howses.