Fleury overdue for recognition by Flames

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Now he tweets out some article on why he should be retired by said organization?

He shared an newspaper article on his personal Facebook. That was written about him. I know it's not as big of a deal as a selfie in traffic or a picture of what he had for breakfast in the morning, but people are acting like he comissioned the article himself and walked out to centre ice during the ceremonial puck drop shooting copies of the paper into the crowd with Harvey's T-Shirt cannon.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

If Hockey was an individual sport then Fleury should be recognized based on his points alone, but Hockey is a team sport not just on the ice but off the ice, in practice, the gym and team/community outings. Theo may have been a fantastic player on the ice but off he was severely lacking.

Does it really matter? As long as both are up there, those numbers up in the rafters remind us how lucky it was for the Flames to have them at one time.

[doctajones428]

Theo deserves his number retired but unless he shuts his mouth it will never happen. It could of been in the rafters in 2009 but he just had to burn the bridge when he didn't make the team.

Shut the hell up and stop gloating for awhile

[AvengeR]

Originally Posted by Schraderbrau

His number should without a doubt be in the rafters at the dome. Not so sure he will get into the hall of fame though.

Here is a question, iggy only has a couple years left in his career. Will 12 or 14 be hung first?

What about Kipper?

[calgaryred]

Doesn't make sense not to retire his number if they wont use it. Since Theo left for the Avs no one has worn 14, I expect no one will wear 12 either now.

Either retire them or put them back into circulation, isn't that the reason they honor numbers now?

[Yamer]

So, I'm honestly asking this because I can't recall: What did Theo say, apart from his comments after being cut in 2009, about the Flames organization? I've heard this "bad-mouthing the organization" stuff for a while, but as far as I can remember it was centered around this incident (which, IMO, was incredibly tame and not worth the hub-bub that came about).

Inform the ignorant, if you will...

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Yamer

So, I'm honestly asking this because I can't recall: What did Theo say, apart from his comments after being cut in 2009, about the Flames organization? I've heard this "bad-mouthing the organization" stuff for a while, but as far as I can remember it was centered around this incident (which, IMO, was incredibly tame and not worth the hub-bub that came about).

Inform the ignorant, if you will...

Well, I'm no historian but I don't know why you so easily brush off those comments he made in 2010. There was a lot of good will built up towards Theo during his come back at the 2009 training camp, plenty of fans like me, who didn't feel great towards him were openly cheering again for him, it felt great.

Then out of no where, when the Flames were really struggling he called out beloved by all Craig Conroy and effectively said the management team that gave him another chance, stupid. Just came across as bitter ol' Theo. It was really annoying and most of all, frustrating.

Maybe the comments don't mean much, but for a guy that had just won back a lot of fans, we were left scratching our heads.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Well, I'm no historian but I don't know why you so easily brush off those comments he made in 2010. There was a lot of good will built up towards Theo during his come back at the 2009 training camp, plenty of fans like me, who didn't feel great towards him were openly cheering again for him, it felt great.

Then out of no where, when the Flames were really struggling he called out beloved by all Craig Conroy and effectively said the management team that gave him another chance, stupid. Just came across as bitter ol' Theo. It was really annoying and most of all, frustrating.

Maybe the comments don't mean much, but for a guy that had just won back a lot of fans, we were left scratching our heads.

Granted, given Conroy's endearing characteristics and ability to charm us (deservedly so), it came off rather brash. In all objectivity, though, how much more did Conroy show than Fleury at that camp and pre-season? More (for the role), sure, but IMO not significantly much. And, honestly, the flairs that Theo showed shone brighter than Craig. He had that crazy spark and game-breaking ability that made him so amazing. Now, that was pre-season, against pre-season rosters, but I don't fault him for having the confidence and pride that allowed him to believe he was the better choice given the options at the time.

I never begrudge Theo for those qualities. Actually, in many ways it's quite admirable. I get that it can come off as arrogance, but I know the source, and what formed it, and becomes understandable. I just don't really think what he said, given the context, was worth the condemnation that it received.

If there was something else I'm not remembering or am not aware of I would certainly be willing to factor that into my consideration.

[corporatejay]

I kind of think jersey retirements a bit lame and should be kept for special occasions. I was for hoisting 12 but now that he's become a journeyman at this point in his career I'd rather not. I Can see 34 being up there though, basically played for one organization his whole career.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Granted, given Conroy's endearing characteristics and ability to charm us (deservedly so), it came off rather brash. In all objectivity, though, how much more did Conroy show than Fleury at that camp and pre-season? More, sure, but IMO not significantly much. And, honestly, the flairs that Theo showed shone brighter than Craig. He had that crazy spark and game-breaking ability that made him so amazing. Now, that was pre-season, against pre-season rosters, but I don't fault him for having the confidence and pride that allowed him to believe he was the better choice given the options at the time.

I never begrudge Theo for those qualities. Actually, in many ways it's quite admirable. I get that it can come off as arrogance, but I know the source, and what formed it, and becomes understandable. I just don't really think what he said, given the context, was worth the condemnation that it received.

If there was something else I'm not remembering or am not aware of I would certainly be willing to factor that into my consideration.

C'mon dude. He looked overmatched against ahl rosters.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by CSharp

Does it really matter? As long as both are up there, those numbers up in the rafters remind us how lucky it was for the Flames to have them at one time.

Apparently it does.

If the Team makes the decision to retire or honor him and his number I would support it. I just understand why they have chosen not too at this time.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

C'mon dude. He looked overmatched against ahl rosters.

Let's be realistic. He lost a step, but he also finished at the top of conditioning testing and showed improvement each day.

Conroy was probably a better option in the role Theo was competing for, but I don't fault Theo his confidence in himself...despite from who it came at the expense.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Granted, given Conroy's endearing characteristics and ability to charm us (deservedly so), it came off rather brash. In all objectivity, though, how much more did Conroy show than Fleury at that camp and pre-season? More (for the role), sure, but IMO not significantly much. And, honestly, the flairs that Theo showed shone brighter than Craig. He had that crazy spark and game-breaking ability that made him so amazing. Now, that was pre-season, against pre-season rosters, but I don't fault him for having the confidence and pride that allowed him to believe he was the better choice given the options at the time.

I never begrudge Theo for those qualities. Actually, in many ways it's quite admirable. I get that it can come off as arrogance, but I know the source, and what formed it, and becomes understandable. I just don't really think what he said, given the context, was worth the condemnation that it received.

If there was something else I'm not remembering or am not aware of I would certainly be willing to factor that into my consideration.

Okay, you address the comments towards Conroy, but what about the ones where he said "The guys running hockey are stupid", which myself and many other took to mean the Flames. The only team that gave him that last chance.

You glossed right over that.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Let's be realistic. He lost a step, but he also finished at the top of conditioning testing and showed improvement each day.

Is that true about conditioning? Good on him if so, don't remember that though.

Totally disagree about showing improvements each day. As more and more NHL players entered the pre season line ups he looked worse and worse. That's generally accepted. I think you'd be the only one to say he was getting better.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Okay, you address the comments towards Conroy, but what about the ones where he said "The guys running hockey are stupid", which myself and many other took to mean the Flames. The only team that gave him that last chance.

You glossed right over that.

I've already admitted my limited memory on all these comments, so please don't accuse me of glossing over anything. So, for reference, here's his comments following the cut:

Wow, what a year! At this time last year, I was 45 pounds overweight and thinking about making a comeback. HAHAHAHA! Anyway, we put our nose to the grindstone and boy did we make a comeback. At one hundred and eighty pounds, I finished 11th out of 56 guys at camp in the fitness test and scored a [1] historic shootout goal in an exhibition game after being out of hockey for six years. What does that say about the talent level in the NHL? 4 points and a plus 4 rating in four exhibition games and I get cut. What a joke! [2]Craig Conroy goes the first 37 games of the season with zero goals. I wonder how many I would have had. [3] Even with all the stupid people that run the game of hockey, it’s still a great game. Go figure. Anyway, then the book comes out and starts flying off the shelves. The truth will set you free! 100,000 copies and counting. Thank you for all your support.

So, there are three bolded points that I think might be of concern.

First, I'm giving everyone this one. This is desperation to remain relevant and important. In Theo and Theo's mind alone is this a "historic shootout goal", despite how awesome it was at the time.

Second, pinpointing Conroy's contribution at the time of his comments. Valid, IMO, as this was one of the primary players Theo was competing with for a spot on the regular season roster. This was Conroy's swan song in the NHL, tailing off in icetime and production as it began his transition to the front office (which isn't a bad thing). Theo wondering how he might have done 37 games in isn't worth admonishing...he just had the misfortune of competing with a player Flames fans love. It's not out of the realm of possibility, used in the proper fashion (limited ice with powerplay time) that Theo would have outproduced Craig and contributed more, at that point, to the team.

Third, he indirectly calls out the management team. Again, valid. How many, by the end of the season, were praising the direction and decisions of the people in charge? It was the beginning of the end, and within a year the re-arrangement of the front office began with Sutter's resignation in December (even though some fans saw the writing on the wall at the time or shortly after Theo made those comments in the New Year).

We'll never know if Theo would have done better than anyone he was competing with that year. I make an educated guess that most likely not, but I don't hold it against him for having a negative opinion on the direction given the total context of the situation.

If this is what is keeping Fleury from being honored with a jersey retirement, then I am more disappointed with the Flames organization than I am Theoren Fleury.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Is that true about conditioning? Good on him if so, don't remember that though.

Totally disagree about showing improvements each day. As more and more NHL players entered the pre season line ups he looked worse and worse. That's generally accepted. I think you'd be the only one to say he was getting better.

So, just to follow up, I thought he was showing signs of adapting to the fact he had aged and slowed. I felt he compensated in these areas admirably, if not fully effectively. He had work to do to catch or make up for his deficiencies, but I believed it was promising progress.

Respect your assessment, though.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Yamer

So, just to follow up, I thought he was showing signs of adapting to the fact he had aged and slowed. I felt he compensated in these areas admirably, if not fully effectively. He had work to do to catch or make up for his deficiencies, but I believed it was promising progress.

Respect your assessment, though.

My assessment was that he was just too slow. He was repeatedly not keeping up with the play - both his line-mates and the opponent. Pre-season hockey isn't about stat production at all - jobs and won and lost on the basis of actual skill assessment. And my assessment was he was well below what would be required to be in the NHL. We also have to keep in mind that having him on the 4th line would have been useless. He was competing for a top 9 role.

[GioforPM]

Yamer, you can defend Fleury's comments as being correct, and maybe some of them are. There were impolitic, however. I can't trash my former bosses (factually or not) and then get all indignant when they don't honour me.

Fleury's still pretty young - I'm sure his jersey will go up. I agree it may be after Iggy and maybe Kipper.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Is that true about conditioning? Good on him if so, don't remember that though.

Totally disagree about showing improvements each day. As more and more NHL players entered the pre season line ups he looked worse and worse. That's generally accepted. I think you'd be the only one to say he was getting better.

I think you are both right, actually. My view was that Theo was improving from day to day during that camp. The problem is that his improvement curve was lower than other players, so he lost ground on a relative scale. Given dude was 40 years old, that should hardly have been a surprise.

[cDnStealth]

I think some people here have a hard time separating the Hockey Hall of Fame from a team honoring a player's jersey number. They are not the same and what each represents are two totally different things. Does he deserve to be in the Hall? Sure. Up on the Dome's rafters? I don't think so. To me, retiring a jersey number has to be more than just a players stats. How many players in the Hall have their jersey numbers retired?

Frankly, Fleury hasn't been a great ambassador for this team or this city. I respect what he's gone through in his personal life but that shouldn't have any bearing on retiring his number. I wouldn't be upset if they did retire (or honor) his number but I also don't think he's overdue or that it's some kind of travesty that it hasn't been already done.