Israel warns: free soldier or PM dies

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by calculoso

There are a few, RedMileStyle for one, but that's besides the point.

There always seems to be an anti-US, or an "anything that happens to the US is deserved" viewpoint that is exhibited during these threads, and it's usually the same people every time. Then, when something similar happens elsewhere in the world (ie: not to the US), it's heavilly condemned.

The bias and double standard is rampant on both sides, not just one. That's my only point.

Can you please quote my post where I said I supported Hamas? I recognize Hamas as the democratically elected government to the Palestinian people. Regardless of what decisions they make while in power, they are the government of the occupied territory of Palestine. To not recognize them would be ignorance.

How can you support Israel's statements about assasinating the Palestinian PM? THAT is terrorism and unfortunately the U.S. has a history of assasinating democratically elected officials and replacing them with dictatorships.

The facade of spreading democracy really shines through here. Basically what you're agreeing to is that democracy is good, as long as the people we want to win do, and if not, we'll kill them.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Can you please quote my post where I said I supported Hamas?

How about Post #17 in this thread:
"Why does anybody do anything that is radical, such as that of kidnapping a political figure? It is clear that a group is being repressed, and feeling like nobody is listening to them, so they resort to whatever can get their message across. The democratically elected Hamas government is not being recognized, and therefor they have to do whatever is in their power to try and get their message relayed."

You're defending them and their actions. While support may not be the right feeling, you're definitely not un-sympathetic to them and their cause.

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

How can you support Israel's statements about assasinating the Palestinian PM? THAT is terrorism and unfortunately the U.S. has a history of assasinating democratically elected officials and replacing them with dictatorships.

Where have I said that I support Israel's statement?

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

The facade of spreading democracy really shines through here. Basically what you're agreeing to is that democracy is good, as long as the people we want to win do, and if not, we'll kill them.

Nope. I'm not agreeing to that at all.

I'm agreeing to the fact that people should be held responsible for their actions. In most Western worlds, that is through the courts. In the middle east, they obviously don't care about courts. The only language that they seem to understand is threats and action.

I don't agree with how Israel is going about this, but if it gets their message across then so be it. Isn't that basically how you worded it?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by calculoso

From a random patrol? Was the unit looking for who sent rockets / bombs / etc (whatever has been fairly commonly fired into Israel)?

Dunno. I read he was from a forward unit, what ever that meant. What you said makes the most sense, but I can't confirm that.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

My solution? Give the Palestinians a homeland as well. Split Israel in two and give half to the Palestinians. Hey, it worked for Solomon.



Frankly, I think this is the only solution. Both are making claim to the turf, so split it up, negotiate settlements across the board, make it binding, and let the healing begin. A settlement needs to be enforced on BOTH parties, and done so by the international community. The international community created this mess, they have to clean it up. They need to arbitrate the settlement and then make the two sides live by it. The international community needs to police it afterwards and treat both sides equally. That is the solution.

I actually agree Lanny.

The UN should send in a very strong military force to get that done, and solve the problem once and for all.

[comrade]

Originally Posted by Azure

I actually agree Lanny.

The UN should send in a very strong military force to get that done, and solve the problem once and for all.

The UN? Unless the split heavily favours the Israelis the US will just veto the proposal, just like they do with almost every anti-Israel UN proposal.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by comrade

The UN? Unless the split heavily favours the Israelis the US will just veto the proposal, just like they do with almost every anti-Israel UN proposal.

Why would that proposal be anti-Israel?

Israel has already shown they will give up certain areas in exchange for peace.

[HOZ]

98 detainees are KNOWN (let alone how many the U.S. is covering up) to have died since August 2002 in the custody of US officials abroad. The U.S. military itself classifies 34 of these deaths as suspected or confirmed homicides. But in half of all deaths, the cause was never announced or was reported as undetermined. At least eight, and as many as twelve, were tortured to death. In only 12 of the 34 admitted homicides have any military personnel or US officials been punished. In the cases of detainees tortured to death, only half have resulted in punishment. The harshiest prison sentence meted out to anyone involved in a torture-related death was five months.
- Command's Responsibility: Detainee Deaths in U.S. Custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, released in Februrary by Human Rights First.

Now is this Abu Gharib? Or is this from the Iraq and Afghanistan in general? You started your rant against the Power about Abu Gharib now I have the goalpost moving reply. OH, you mean the all the conflicts now....war is hell. Crappy things have happend in all wars by all sorts of people, not just Americans.

There was no torture in Abu Gharib prison by the Americans.

Was the (let alone covering up) your addition or was it there from Human Rights First? If it is from Human Rights First then their information has to be questioned due to their bias against the Americans.



I think it is funny how you quote the failings of the UN in Sudan, but I certainly do not see any American, or Canadian, troops there. Why are they in Iraq but not in Darfur where huge atrocities are taking place? The UN is only as powerful as it's member-states make it, it is not a global government. Are you willing to send Canadian troops to Darfur, guaranteeing casualties? Do you think the Canadian government under Harper would even consider sacrificing lives in an area that guarantees no economical, political or tactical importance? Why did Rwanda fail? No country was willing to donate resources to Africa. Regardless of what is happening in other parts of the world, the bottom line is the world came to a conclusion in regards to Iraq, and the U.S. did not listen.


1) Canada is in Afghanistan. Thanks to 3 decades of Trudeaupean neglect our military is stretched to the limit with one major deployment. S the point again is moot. Canada wil not send a single soldier there.
2) Thanks to the "Anti-War" crowd you can be guaranteed that the USA will never unilaterally invade a oil producing muslim country (ie Sudan) EVER AGAIN. Which would be in order since Sudan has barred the UN from sending any UN force to Sudan anyways.
3) Why can't France and Germany invade? They have nothing to do. Oh...THE UN HAS STATED that they want only African or Muslim countries to participate.
4) There is no genocide in Sudan...didn't you hear? 2 years after Colin Powell went to Sudan for the USA and declared that there WAS genocide the UN sent it's trusty observers in to discover...that there was in fact.... no genocide. This is after the Sudanese government has killed off 1-2 million Christians in the South and 1-2 black Muslims in the west.
5) You are right about one thing. The UN is ineffectual because it's member states can't get the political will to do anything of consequence. Hences the US's unilateral actions in Iraq (Afghanistan has UN approval). China gets 1/3 of it's oil from Sudan. Trust me, only when the last man has been killed and his wife raped and his children sold into slavery will the UN act. They'll send in another fact finding team.


Funny you should mention that Saddam was not acting normal... The U.S. has never allowed the IAEA weapon inspectors in. What does that say about them? Who supplied Saddam with all those weapons in the first place to fight the Soviets? Yeah... I'll give you a hint, their president is a moron.

Won't let IAEA inspectors in? Well I can guarantee you that the Americans have nuclear weapons. So what does this have to do with Iraq? Or is this some pathetic "moral equivalence " thing?


All those weapons? The Soviets definitely gave him thew MiGs, T-72 tanks and all those AK47s. Americans don't make those.

If you are refering to the chemical weapons. Then no one supplied him them. Saddam made them himself, which was the real danger prior tot he dsecond Iraq war. Those chemical weapons components can be easily made from industrial (ie OIL industry) materials. A whole bunch of countries, not just the USA, are to blame for allowing their companies to profit by selling chemicals and materials beyond those necessary for Oil production. This happened well before GW Bush's presidency.

[Footscray]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...rnational/home

Israel rejects cease fire offer, death toll reaches 36 from current conflict including an 11 year old Palestinian kid and one israeli soldier.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Footscray

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...rnational/home

Israel rejects cease fire offer, death toll reaches 36 from current conflict including an 11 year old Palestinian kid and one israeli soldier.

Well it is a family affair in Palestine.



Why tell them to get back when their deaths serve a higher purpose?


But then Hamas is a death cult. So what do they care?

[Footscray]

You've got no idea how that kid died, lots have died in Palestine aiding their cause, lots have died who were completely uninvolved in fighting.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Footscray

You've got no idea how that kid died, lots have died in Palestine aiding their cause, lots have died who were completely uninvolved in fighting.

Just like it happens in every "single" war.

If HAMAS hasn't already given the soldier back, but has called for a cease-fire, the soldier is most likely dead.

I wonder what will happen now...

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

My solution? Give the Palestinians a homeland as well. Split Israel in two and give half to the Palestinians. Hey, it worked for Solomon.



Frankly, I think this is the only solution. Both are making claim to the turf, so split it up, negotiate settlements across the board, make it binding, and let the healing begin. A settlement needs to be enforced on BOTH parties, and done so by the international community. The international community created this mess, they have to clean it up. They need to arbitrate the settlement and then make the two sides live by it. The international community needs to police it afterwards and treat both sides equally. That is the solution.

I hate to disagree with you, but that solution would never work based on the history of this conflict. Whenever Isreal has given up land for piece they've been paid back with more rockets and bombs exploding in thier home land. Its come to the point where the extreme groups aren't talking about getting a homeland for thier people, or negotiating for a settlement, they've talked about destroying Israel, or not recogonizing Jews as human beings.

I think your hearts in the right place Lanny, but honestly Israel is no longer going to want to give up anything, they've been stabbed too often for that to happen.

the finger of shame has to be pointed to the Muslim nations in that area who would prefer to see the Palestines suffer, and die and face an angry Israel because it makes for a powerful political statement. The right thing to do would be for Egypt to offer settlement lands to the Palestines, and for Jordan and Syria and all of the other nations in the region to ante up either land of cash.

Isn't the one of the major tenants of Islam charity?

Seems like these nations aren't following up on this.

The Palestines have been dupped and used on three sides. 1) The UN who did a **** poor job of settling this issues 2) Egypt, Syria and Jordan who could have settled this situation a long time ago, but choose not to 3) Israel, because they over retaliate at times and stupidly allow themselves to be played up as the bad guys.

Just my two cents.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I hate to disagree with you, but that solution would never work based on the history of this conflict. Whenever Isreal has given up land for piece they've been paid back with more rockets and bombs exploding in thier home land. Its come to the point where the extreme groups aren't talking about getting a homeland for thier people, or negotiating for a settlement, they've talked about destroying Israel, or not recogonizing Jews as human beings.

I think your hearts in the right place Lanny, but honestly Israel is no longer going to want to give up anything, they've been stabbed too often for that to happen.

the finger of shame has to be pointed to the Muslim nations in that area who would prefer to see the Palestines suffer, and die and face an angry Israel because it makes for a powerful political statement. The right thing to do would be for Egypt to offer settlement lands to the Palestines, and for Jordan and Syria and all of the other nations in the region to ante up either land of cash.

Isn't the one of the major tenants of Islam charity?

Seems like these nations aren't following up on this.

The Palestines have been dupped and used on three sides. 1) The UN who did a **** poor job of settling this issues 2) Egypt, Syria and Jordan who could have settled this situation a long time ago, but choose not to 3) Israel, because they over retaliate at times and stupidly allow themselves to be played up as the bad guys.

Just my two cents.

Some really good comments there Captain. Some food for thought, definitely. I think Israel has to play ball too, and cough up some of the land. After all, it was the Palestinians land that was taken away to create Israel. I think that they have to cough up too to make it work. I also think the UN has to be in the middle of this and play a big active role in peace keeping. They have to be fair and they have lay sanctions down on both sides to make this work, if someone misbehaves. I agree that the Palestinians have been used, but who hasn't at some point? It's time to try and put the past where it belongs (behind us) and start working toward the future.

[FireFly]

I have a Jewish friend who went to Israel for a month and told me it was the most life altering experience he'd ever had. This was some years ago during a 'cease-fire'... He told me that in everyday life Palestinians and Israelites are friends with each other, but as soon as the smallest thing happens, they will and do throw rocks at each other. These are everyday citizens, not soldiers. People who are friends with each other who would kill their friends at the drop of a dime if given a reason. He told me it doesn't even need to be a great reason, they would just start chucking rocks, but go back to being friends the very next day.

I found it odd that the hatred is both deep seeded and not at the same time. I mean, if this conflict is so important, why are you friends in the first place? And if you're friends, how could you just turn your back on your friend and instantly wish to kill them? This sh*t doesn't make sense, G. I suppose I'll never understand how a person could be so easily swayed by the government, media and propaganda and not listen to their heart. Thank God for public education systems that teach children to think for themselves and not ingest every word like it's Gospel.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

^^^^You hit the nail on the head. Education. That's the only way this is going to end well, is if we can educate both sides effectively. That would mean two or three generations of people before we see a change in attitudes.

[White Doors]

HAMAS built a tunnel under the Gaza border killed 2 Israeli border guards and kidnapped the third one. That is what happened. They were not in Gaza territory at all. That is an act of war and Israel has no choice but to respond aggressively.

This AFTER Israel pulled out of Gaza completely. Gaza got what they wanted and they still want to kill and maim Israeli's (that is when they aren't killing each other). What is Israel to do?

Some have mentioned Education - that is a good point. In the west bank and Gaza the education system and publicly funded Television consistently portray Jews as pigs and monkey's. Clean THAT up and then we'll see some long term results. Until the Palestinians can be stopped from brainwashing their young, this will never stop.