Flames to announce plans to announce arena plans in the... future...

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Muta

Aside from its primary reason as a host for sporting and entertainment events, arenas, stadia and their associated districts can spawn significant economic growth and development for that specific location in a multitude of ways.

Renovations are primarily band-aid solutions when it comes to older stadia. There's still many infrastructure issues that would still exist.

Plus, if you think you can renovate the concourse at the Saddledome at a reasonable price, think again. To expand that concourse, renovate and expand washrooms and other amenities, upgrade seating and re-design the roof to carry more snow and precipitation loads, I would think (based on my design and construction background) that could run into the $100M mark.

You might as well pursue a brand new facility at that cost.

Totally fair, I am not a construction guy by any means!

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

What pains have Winnipeg taxpayers incurred since the erection of the stadium and arena? Seriously how many people's lives have been affected negatively? Maybe people like you are idiotic for not wanting your city to have good things? What are you so afraid of? Taxes going up? Well guess what they have been going up every year for years now. For me I plan on sticking around for a while and I take pride in my city. It's embarrassing that this city will soon have the worst sports facilities in Canada.

There are issues that are far worse than the professional sports facilities in Calgary that you should be embarrassed about. Issues that hit tens to hundreds of thousands of Calgarians every single day.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Majority of them, have send the city could possibly give land. The Flames have said they want to utilize West Downtown, where the CoC owns land that could accommodate the new facility.

5/15 council members said that they'd be willing to possibly do something like giving land. 5/15 is not the majority.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Saddledome tip: If you use the larger washrooms at the southwest or northeast corners of the concourse, there is rarely a queue and if there is it moves quickly. Avoid the NW and SE washrooms.

A queue....

Also - your tip won't last if you go around posting it all over CP

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

There are issues that are far worse than the professional sports facilities in Calgary that you should be embarrassed about. Issues that hit tens to hundreds of thousands of Calgarians every single day.

Like what? And what has Nenshi and city hall planned to correct these issues? You can't blame tax money going to an arena from taking away from issues that city hall isn't looking to fix in the first place. Everyone likes to think that it would be taking away from something else but in reality is really isn't and that's my point in say Winnipeg. There is nothing that wasn't on the city's radar before that isn't getting done now because of their new facilities.

[Tinordi]

On what planet is giving taxpayer owned land away not considered using public money?

[Madman]

Originally Posted by heep223

5/15 council members said that they'd be willing to possibly do something like giving land. 5/15 is not the majority.

It is if.

5/15 willing to possibly do something
4/15 willing to think about maybe talking about do something
3/15 willing to think about the possibility of being willing
2/15 not willing to be willing
1/15 went for poutine

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

What pains have Winnipeg taxpayers incurred since the erection of the stadium and arena? Seriously how many people's lives have been affected negatively? Maybe people like you are idiotic for not wanting your city to have good things? What are you so afraid of? Taxes going up? Well guess what they have been going up every year for years now. For me I plan on sticking around for a while and I take pride in my city. It's embarrassing that this city will soon have the worst sports facilities in Canada.

Ok, but Calgary Transit's performance relative to Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto is beyond humiliating. It's a much, much bigger concern than a new arena, to so many more people than an arena most people might visit 20 times in their life.

So are roads, so are schools, so are more arenas for kids (and not millionaires) to play in, so are other more pressing issues. That anyone can prioritize a new arena when this city has a multitude of issues, ones that will only grow as the population does, is ridiculous. But if you'd like to pay for a new arena, PSLs are just for you, give the owners thousands of dollars for the right to buy tickets. That's essentially the same as taxpayers doing it, except PSLs allow choice whereas having your city decide for you does not.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Like?

Any of the major, on-going infrastructure demands such as Crowchild Trail over the Bow, Bow Trail/Stoney interchange, etc, LRT extensions, low income and transitional housing options, water infrastructure (waste water issues in the NW.) These are all more important to a larger percentage of people in Calgary.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Rhettzky

I'm pretty sure the flood set things back by a couple years. But besides that, things take time and despite the Flames not making any kind of formal announcement, there are still people complaining about the timeline.



Rocket surgery does sound very complex.

how would the flood have set things back?

That's an argument I've never understood.

The flames are teasing the idea of building a multi-sport facility that could run close to a billion dollars. Surely the cleanup cost would have been A) Insured and B) an amount not approaching a billion dollar sum.

I don't see what bearing the flood has at all on the proposal for new construction that apparently has been planned since before the flooding. Maybe the flood forced some adjustments to the design, but again, it's almost 2015.

[Erick Estrada]

You can't quantify civic pride. I challenge anyone to say that civic pride has ever been higher in this city than 2004. The buzz and energy in the city was even higher than during the Olympics or the Flames 2009 cup year. That buzz lasted for years after. Calgarians don't own the Flames and we should be thankful the Flames ownership has invested to provide this city with the Flames, Stamps, Hitmen, Roughneck, etc on an annual basis. These guys aren't greasy businessmen they are local men who are involved with this city. They don't stick their faces in the limelight like Jerry Jones or Katz. They don't do it for fame. They do it because they are proud Calgarians and want to give back because we all know there isn't a lot of money to be made on CFL, WHL, NHL, etc. I think Calgarians have been spoiled by having such a classy ownership group as how many disasters have we seen in Ottawa, Edmonton, Long Island, etc. heck if anyone follows football they would know Feterik was going to drive the Stampeders into the ground. I would caution Nenshi from alienating what is simply one of the best ownership groups in North America. You want to play hardball? Fine but please don't be an a-hole to these guys as they will be here when Nenshi is in Toronto or Ottawa and nothing more than a memory for Calgarians.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by saillias

It's old and crowded and ugly. And needs moar bathrooms.

Regarding the age- when the Dome was build in 1983, how old were the other arenas around the league? It just strikes me that we were the first to get a new arena; and now that others have followed- it's just that ours is the oldest. Not that it is too old.

Regarding the washrooms- a few things could be done. Behind 201 (going towards the lounge) there is a huge wasted space. Make the women's washroom take over the space of the men's, and build a men's room in that wasted space. There are a few other places. Also, in the men's washrooms replace some of the stalls with urinals. Has any guy here on CP ever pooped at the Dome?

I know some of this won't be cheap, but I can't see $100M. Maybe $10M. Even then- $100M is still a fraction of what a new arena would cost.

Bottom line- the single biggest reason to replace the Dome is to have more expensive seats. That should not come on the backs of the tax payers; or at least not to a great extent. I can see upgrading Crow/Bow if it goes into West Village; but that should be about it. That is a project that should happen anyway.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Any of the major, on-going infrastructure demands such as Crowchild Trail over the Bow, Bow Trail/Stoney interchange, etc, LRT extensions, low income and transitional housing options, water infrastructure (waste water issues in the NW.) These are all more important to a larger percentage of people in Calgary.

These are all real concerns.

However - money is often "earmarked" into buckets for certain things and money for something like an arena would not be coming at the expense of these other (more important) things.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

On what planet is giving taxpayer owned land away not considered using public money?

Well, since you asked. Someone here actually made a pretty reasonable proposal that the flames remediate and develop west village in exchange for say, a 50 year lease @ $1.

City gets the benefit of the redevelopment and remediation without sunk costs. 50 years they can take the land back and turn it into condos if they want.


How does that sound?

This is why I don't understand how people can be so passionate about this on either side when we have no idea what the proposal looks like.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You can't quantify civic pride. I challenge anyone to say that civic pride has ever been higher in this city than 2004. The buzz and energy in the city was even higher than during the Olympics or the Flames 2009 cup year. That buzz lasted for years after. Calgarians don't own the Flames and we should be thankful the Flames ownership has invested to provide this city with the Flames, Stamps, Hitmen, Roughneck, etc on an annual basis. These guys aren't greasy businessmen they are local men who are involved with this city. They don't stick their faces in the limelight like Jerry Jones or Katz. They don't do it for fame. They do it because they are proud Calgarians and want to give back because we all know there isn't a lot of money to be made on CFL, WHL, NHL, etc. I think Calgarians have been spoiled by having such a classy ownership group as how many disasters have we seen in Ottawa, Edmonton, Long Island, etc. heck if anyone follows football they would know Feterik was going to drive the Stampeders into the ground. I would caution Nenshi from alienating what is simply one of the best ownership groups in North America. You want to play hardball? Fine but please don't be an a-hole to these guys as they will be here when Nenshi is in Toronto or Ottawa and nothing more than a memory for Calgarians.

I love hockey and I love the Flames but I really think you might be over-estimating the social benefit that the Calgary Flames provide to the city. The majority of the people in the city likely don't give a damn about what the Flames are doing or how they are performing.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

how would the flood have set things back?

That's an argument I've never understood.

The flames are teasing the idea of building a multi-sport facility that could run close to a billion dollars. Surely the cleanup cost would have been A) Insured and B) an amount not approaching a billion dollar sum.

I don't see what bearing the flood has at all on the proposal for new construction that apparently has been planned since before the flooding. Maybe the flood forced some adjustments to the design, but again, it's almost 2015.

Maybe just in terms of focus, attention and timing? They had to focus on rebuilding the dome. As well, presenting the new concept and getting into public debate at a time when many Calgarians had far more important things to deal with would have been wildly inappropriate.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

The majority of the people in the city likely don't give a damn about what the Flames are doing or how they are performing.

Do you have anything to back this up or is this just purely your opinion? Because if it's just your opinion, I do not agree with this at all.

[j_j]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's embarrassing that this city will soon have the worst sports facilities in Canada.

It's not a big leap to see how quickly that sentiment will also erode both the fan base and the team's performance.

- Fans want value for their ticket experience and can't get that when the food and facilities don't keep pace with the cost of the ticket or the alternatives like just staying home. This trend is already well underway with our football team regardless of their on-field performance. And it was happening in hockey too, but the strong story lines this year have started to win back the live audience.

- Top players, want to come to play for teams with quality stadiums with quality facilities. It's all part of the sales pitch. Especially in cap leagues where offering salary negotiation only takes you so far.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

On what planet is giving taxpayer owned land away not considered using public money?

The same planet where people think there is no benefit to the city to have a quality sports facility

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by heep223

Do you have anything to back this up or is this just purely your opinion? Because if it's just your opinion, I do not agree with this at all.

It is purely my opinion which is based on my interactions with a diverse group of individuals on a day to day basis. For example, in my office (a small office) only about 15% of the people actually follow the Flames and know what is happening. I've had many occasions where I try to make small talk at functions or events and to a large extent trying to talk about the Flames generally doesn't go anywhere.

I think that as fans we typically want to believe that the game is much more important than it actually is. As an example, I always thought that the minor hockey program in Calgary was huge with lots of support. There are ~150,000 kids in Calgary between the ages of 5 and 15 but only about ~13,000 play minor hockey.