Should the Flames trade up or trade down once they get healthy?

[GioforPM]

Not that I agree he's a better player, because I don't but Glencross has no term after this year, so he is only a rental. Therefore not garnering as much in return.

Why would you "just waive" without trying to trade anyone.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Not that I agree he's a better player, because I don't but Glencross has no term after this year, so he is only a rental. Therefore not garnering as much in return.

Why would you "just waive" without trying to trade anyone.

I'm sure they would try, but why would a team spend assets for someone they could conceivably have for free? Its a double-entry game.

Besides, for Seto you're not exactly going to be hauling in the assets.

He's cheap. Thats as far as his positives go. Callups from the AHL are cheap too.

[Bingo]

Haven't had a chance to read all four pages, but my thoughts

The only vet I hope to move is Glencross, I don't think he fits the club's style. I like Stajan and think he's an important part of what Hartley is getting done in the room, would hate to temper that.

The only AHL guy that I think needs to stay up is Granlund, I don't see much reason to send him back for development as he's looked NHL ready. Jooris is second, but as a second year pro it would kill him to shuttle a bit this year. Reinhart and Baertschi aren't ready yet, and Ferland is pretty young.

So I don't see much of a glut really ... Setoguchi and possible even McGrattan could go down if need be.

Granlund sticking means Colborne stays on the wing.

Things get interesting if Poirier keeps lighting it up.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by waner

Glencross would garner more interest than Hudler as he is a better player with less money and less term.

Sure some have NTCs but no play-offs and another year or two of rebuilding could easily influence them to waive, guys with no trade clauses get moved all the time.

Defencemen are at a premium so finding homes for Snid and Wideman should be possible. I also wouldn't want anything but late picks back for them. Raymond is on a cheap deal and the type of guys contenders add all the time. Hudler and Glencross should have multiple suitors and Setoguchi I would just waive/release so no need to find a place for him.

Glencross is not necessarily the better player than Hudler he fills a different role. The fact he is a pending UFA hurts his value. He has been seen as somewhat idea solid trade chip prior to this season because of the cap friendly contract. Well he is in the last year and is looking for a big raise. Hudler still has 2 very cap friendly years left for a guy who can score 50pts is only 30 (opposed to Glencross who will be 33 next month)

Trading Smid and Wideman for late picks is a terrible idea as we have no depth on the blueline with really only one prospect looking to be a regular right away (Spoon).

Flames likely need to keep a couple of vets so I would hold on to both Hudler and Raymond for at least the remainder of the season and likely beyond.

[Imported_Aussie]

I say Setoguchi goes first. I was in favour of giving him a longer look, but he has had that now and not impressed. Waive him, and if his attitude is called into question, loan him to a different AHL team should he clear.
Glencross is an enigma. When he is on, he is worth double what he makes, but he has gone from streaky to missing. However, his line with Monahan and Jones is playing alright, so I am not of the mind that he HAS to go yet. If the team is in a playoff spot, he will not be traded, as the team is doing something right to stay up, but if the Flames end up on the outside looking in, it may be a good time to cut ties.
Jones is starting to look better each game, and the RW group is much thinner. I say keep him for now, and either he gets trade value from playing well, and is movable when Poirier knocks him out of the lineup, or he at least can fill a role on a lower line short term.
Stajan is a good asset to the team, as he can play in all situations, take draws well, plays at a key position in Centre. If he has to become the #4 Centre with Monahan, Backlund and Granlund all ahead of him (and Bennett to come into that conversation in not too long) then he would be a very good guy to have on that 4th line.

I don't think any of the callups NEED to be on the team fulltime, but Jooris and Granlund have done enough to stay. Demoting Setoguchi makes room when everyone is fit for one of those two, and the one that stays will likely be dependent on how the team sees Colborne - winger or centre?
I seriously doubt the team will be fully fit enough to make moving another guy an issue, but if they do, Glencross looks to be the most expendable, as he plays in a position of depth, both in the NHL roster and AHL callup group, and as a pending UFA who will want a payday, he doesn't fit long term. He is not better than Gaudreau, Raymond (who also benefits from being new) or Hudler.

[Locke]

I'm all for giving Setoguchi a fair shake, but the kids have passed him and I never believed he was part of the long-term plans.

The kids have forced the Flames' hands and Seto hasnt, the rest writes itself.

[waner]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Glencross is not necessarily the better player than Hudler he fills a different role. The fact he is a pending UFA hurts his value. He has been seen as somewhat idea solid trade chip prior to this season because of the cap friendly contract. Well he is in the last year and is looking for a big raise. Hudler still has 2 very cap friendly years left for a guy who can score 50pts is only 30 (opposed to Glencross who will be 33 next month)

Trading Smid and Wideman for late picks is a terrible idea as we have no depth on the blueline with really only one prospect looking to be a regular right away (Spoon).

Flames likely need to keep a couple of vets so I would hold on to both Hudler and Raymond for at least the remainder of the season and likely beyond.

Glencross being a UFA likely ups his value at the deadline because teams aren't stuck with his contract going forward. His style of play would make him more desirable for the play-offs than Hudler and I am not sure if I am a contender I want two years of soft, one dimensional play from Hudler.

Sure we don't have a ton of defensive depth but it isn't like Smid or Wideman are providing good play for us. Bring in Diaz and Wotherspoon and the quality doesn't drop off. Worse case scenario we finish 25th instead of 23rd, no big deal.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by waner

Glencross being a UFA likely ups his value at the deadline because teams aren't stuck with his contract going forward. His style of play would make him more desirable for the play-offs than Hudler and I am not sure if I am a contender I want two years of soft, one dimensional play from Hudler.

Sure we don't have a ton of defensive depth but it isn't like Smid or Wideman are providing good play for us. Bring in Diaz and Wotherspoon and the quality doesn't drop off. Worse case scenario we finish 25th instead of 23rd, no big deal.

Last I checked, teams pay for more when a player is on a contract for longer than just a few more months. Rentals don't cost much unless it's for a top end player. Glencross is not a top end player.

Are you watching the Flames? Hudler isn't one dimensional. May not have the best defense, but he isn't one dimensional by any means. Wideman is playing solid hockey for us, and Smid is doing everything we can ask a bottom pairing defenseman to do.

[waner]

Depends on the contract and team obviously. A team like the Kings are likely more interested in a guy like Glencross since they have a lot of young guys needing to get paid soon. Also if the cap isn't moving like rumoured that would also increase value of rentals.

Wideman is collecting points but is still a nightmare outside of the oppositions zone, Smid is all heart but little talent. He is still way to slow and poor positionaly. Neither guy appear to be good options fe when this team is ready to contend so it isn't a bad idea to bring up guys like Wotherspoon to get a sense of what he is/isn't ready to contribute.

[SofaProfessor]

I like how this entire thread hinges on the assumption that once the lineup is healthy there will be no more injuries and we can just trade everyone away.

[gvitaly]

Great discussion guys! I just wanted to thank everyone for all the answers. I wanted to take it one step further so...

Many of you mentioned who we should consider trading, in particular various players that will not be a part of the 'future'. Meanwhile, not many posts touchup on improving the performance of this team during this season. As a result, I was wondering what returns do you think the Flames should be looking for? Should the Flames concentrate on picks and prospects(especially on defense)? Or perhaps maybe look for an upgrade over one of our top 6 forwards that can be the triggerman on the PP?

Also, this team indeed shows flickers of hope for the first time in a while. It has been a while since the word playoffs was more than a remote whisper in Calgary. So would it be considered a losing mentality trading our top veterans despite that success?

A good GM will know exactly how and when sacrifice and upgrade pieces that are a part of our team. Lucky for me is that I am not such thing, so I don't have to deal with all those difficult decisions. Instead I ask everyone here

[flambers]

Personally, I would think the Flames should explore trading Glencross and Ramo.

Both of these trades should occur near the dead-line. Try to obtain draft picks for this years draft type of deals.

Flames as the season continues will fall further and further down the standings.

Teams such as the Hawks, Kings, Sharks etc will start to heat up any time.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by waner

Glencross being a UFA likely ups his value at the deadline because teams aren't stuck with his contract going forward. His style of play would make him more desirable for the play-offs than Hudler and I am not sure if I am a contender I want two years of soft, one dimensional play from Hudler.

Sure we don't have a ton of defensive depth but it isn't like Smid or Wideman are providing good play for us. Bring in Diaz and Wotherspoon and the quality doesn't drop off. Worse case scenario we finish 25th instead of 23rd, no big deal.

Glencross being a pending UFA hurts his value no doubt about it. Who is giving up top assets for a 33 year old they will need to shell out big bucks for to keep? Who is giving up more than a 2nd for a guy you will have for a portion of the season and the playoffs? He is not an elite player at all.

Hudler has a ring and is more than one dimensional. He also has 2 years left on his deal at a cap friendly contract. If you think changing Wideman with Diaz is no change you don't watch the Flames play

[waner]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Glencross being a pending UFA hurts his value no doubt about it. Who is giving up top assets for a 33 year old they will need to shell out big bucks for to keep? Who is giving up more than a 2nd for a guy you will have for a portion of the season and the playoffs? He is not an elite player at all.

Hudler has a ring and is more than one dimensional. He also has 2 years left on his deal at a cap friendly contract. If you think changing Wideman with Diaz is no change you don't watch the Flames play

Nobody is givng up top assets for Glencross whether he is a UFA or has a year or two left on his deal. He is a secondary guy that doesn't attract top assets whether signed or not. Him being a UFA does open up the number of teams available to deal for him as everyone will be able to afford his pro-rated deal from the trade deadline to the end of the year. If he were signed beyond this year there would be some teams not interested in adding that contract to their cap next year.

Hudler is on a pretty fair deal for what he brings and not a lot of contenders are going to want to spend 4 million on a 2nd line player who can't kill penalties or play against other teams top lines. He fits well on the Flames who need his offense and don't care about the cap.

Having a difference of opinion on a player doesn't mean someone doesn't watch the Flames but I guess that is an easy cop out when you have no real answer. Wideman can't defend, is becoming a secondary offensive guy rather than actually creating offense and is now a nightmare with the puck as well in terms of giving it up. He is way overpaid at 5.25 and getting worse by the season. Diaz is no superstar but he can easily play no defense, give the puck away and watch guys skate by him at the blue line just like Wideman.

[Vinny01]

Talking about trading an overpaid Dman who still logs 23+ min a game and scores .5 ppg with no replacement is horrible asset management. This team has depth but little on the blueline and should consider combining some assets to improve rather than getting more magic beans which may or may not pan out in 5 years.

Diaz could not handle top 4 minutes. I completely agree Wideman is overpaid and I would have no problem moving him or Smid but doing so and replacing them with Diaz and Wortherspoon allows for no further injury. We don't have close to the depth on the backend as we do up front (our top end D is much better than out too end forwards however)

In regards to Glencross when he was scoring 24 goals and playing in all situations with 3 years left on his deal at $2.55M per has way more value than pending UFA Glencross no doubt about it.

[waner]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Talking about trading an overpaid Dman who still logs 23+ min a game and scores .5 ppg with no replacement is horrible asset management. This team has depth but little on the blueline and should consider combining some assets to improve rather than getting more magic beans which may or may not pan out in 5 years.

Diaz could not handle top 4 minutes. I completely agree Wideman is overpaid and I would have no problem moving him or Smid but doing so and replacing them with Diaz and Wortherspoon allows for no further injury. We don't have close to the depth on the backend as we do up front (our top end D is much better than out too end forwards however)

In regards to Glencross when he was scoring 24 goals and playing in all situations with 3 years left on his deal at $2.55M per has way more value than pending UFA Glencross no doubt about it.

I think with Russell, Gio and Brodie the Flames have plenty of offense from their defense so the loss of Wideman wouldn't be that big of a deal and Diaz isn't that bad of an offensive guy himself. I personally would prefer to have Wotherspoon in that second pairing than Diaz. It would be a big step up for him but I am fine if he has some slip ups this season as wins/losses not a big deal for me as much as getting an assessment on young guys like Wotherspoon is.

I agree Glencross of 3 years ago is more valuable than Glencross now but he isn't that same guy and doesn't have that same value. Now he has consistency/inury concerns that makes me think teams may not want to take the risk on him if he had 2 more years left on his deal. Now they get a guy with top 6 ability that can also contribute a gritty, play-off style game. They can see if he clicks with their guys and then decide if they want to offer him a long term deal. Plus there is always the issue with Glencross that with a long term deal he doesn't want to leave, maybe he is willing to waive his NTC for the last 3 months of the season.

[Gaudfather]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm all for giving Setoguchi a fair shake, but the kids have passed him and I never believed he was part of the long-term plans.

The kids have forced the Flames' hands and Seto hasnt, the rest writes itself.

Agree - as we are through the first 1/5 of the season it is time to admit this is just a losing bet and fold. His PDO at 88.6% is legions behind the rest of the team.

I understand Seto has only played 10 games, but Jooris is also at 10 games and has a PDO of 99.8% and Jones who is at 8 games has a PDO of 103.2%.

Something is wrong here, and Seto isn't showing any signs of improvement and I am doubtful of improvement coming.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Gaudfather

Agree - as we are through the first 1/5 of the season it is time to admit this is just a losing bet and fold. His PDO at 88.6% is legions behind the rest of the team.

I understand Seto has only played 10 games, but Jooris is also at 10 games and has a PDO of 99.8% and Jones who is at 8 games has a PDO of 103.2%.

Something is wrong here, and Seto isn't showing any signs of improvement and I am doubtful of improvement coming.

Was this in english? What is PDO? How is it higher than 100%

All I know is Setoguchi's goodwill is rapidly expiring.

[Gaudfather]

PDO = summation of shooting % plus save % while on the ice.

Good explanation here http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2011/...-nhl-statistic

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Gaudfather

Agree - as we are through the first 1/5 of the season it is time to admit this is just a losing bet and fold. His PDO at 88.6% is legions behind the rest of the team.

I understand Seto has only played 10 games, but Jooris is also at 10 games and has a PDO of 99.8% and Jones who is at 8 games has a PDO of 103.2%.

Something is wrong here, and Seto isn't showing any signs of improvement and I am doubtful of improvement coming.

I think your using this stat wrong. You're basically saying Seto has been unlucky