Friedman's 30 Thoughts - Nov 6

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Nope. Source?

Hartley.

http://blogs.calgaryherald.com/2013/...dano-doubtful/

[JiriHrdina]

When I look at him playing now he seems timid and trying to react to everything on the ice instead of proactively playing the game.
One of the first goals he scored, he read the play and anticipated the D man making a poor pass - he aggressively moved into position, picked off the pass and scored.
He's not doing anything like that. He looks like a guy that doesn't want the puck and when he gets it - he wants to get rid of it.
Call it confidence. Call it lack of hockey sense at the NHL level. I'm not sure - but his approach to the game is completely different.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

When I look at him playing now he seems timid and trying to react to everything on the ice instead of proactively playing the game.
One of the first goals he scored, he read the play and anticipated the D man making a poor pass - he aggressively moved into position, picked off the pass and scored.
He's not doing anything like that. He looks like a guy that doesn't want the puck and when he gets it - he wants to get rid of it.
Call it confidence. Call it lack of hockey sense at the NHL level. I'm not sure - but his approach to the game is completely different.

You don't just suddenly forget how to play like he was. You either a) are mentally broken and confidence is shattered, or b) are consciously trying to play a different game.

Both can be remedied. I just hope it's with the Flames

[GioforPM]

From that article:

Asked for an assessment of Baertschi’s play of late, Hartley said: “It’s been OK. With the puck, he’s pretty creative. But he’s a young player and we want more.”
Like what?
“Just overall,” replied Hartley. “Overall commitment to learn the game in the three zones. To come up with great efforts every game. I always mention (Montreal’s Brendan) Gallagher to him.
“It’s a matter of choice.”

[That sounds like the offseason criticism by Burke.]

Baertschi was understandably red-faced after a hard skate and was understandably not too happy with the development.
“Last game (in Phoenix, I didn’t play for about 20 minutes (through the middle of the contest),” he said. “I came back and was playing a few shifts and I thought I was playing well. I guess now they took me out.”

[Sounds like whining to me. And not exactly a willingness to accept criticism from the coach.]

[SuperMatt18]

IMO Sven hasn't really been the same player since he had concussion/hip injuries in the 2012-2013 season.

He got off to a good start in the AHL that season but then got the concussion. When the NHL season started he struggled a bit, and ended up getting injured again (hip injury). He was sent down after that injury, and wasn't that great in Abbotsford during that time. After the deadline day trades he was called back up he went on a bit of a run to end the season but didn't carry any of that momentum over to the next year.

IMO the best thing for Sven's development right now would probably be to send him down, hope he can stay healthy, and find his game with an extended run in a consistent setting in Abbotsford.

The combination of injuries, lack of confidence, potential attitude issues (maybe some entitlement issues) and perceived lack of support (Burke and Hartley are hard on him) have all led to where Sven is today. What he needs now is just some consistency, and some support in the organization to let him work through his struggles and find his game again.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by nik-

Hartley.

http://blogs.calgaryherald.com/2013/...dano-doubtful/

I'm sorry, are you talking about this?

Asked for an assessment of Baertschi’s play of late, Hartley said: “It’s been OK. With the puck, he’s pretty creative. But he’s a young player and we want more.”

Like what?

“Just overall,” replied Hartley. “Overall commitment to learn the game in the three zones. To come up with great efforts every game. I always mention (Montreal’s Brendan) Gallagher to him.

“It’s a matter of choice.”

Baertschi was understandably red-faced after a hard skate and was understandably not too happy with the development.

“Last game (in Phoenix, I didn’t play for about 20 minutes (through the middle of the contest),” he said. “I came back and was playing a few shifts and I thought I was playing well. I guess now they took me out.”

Context my friend, he's referring to Gallagher's effort, and he's totally 100% correct. The biggest knock on Sven has been his internal motor. It's just not there. Gallagher has that in spades and that's what he's referring to. Not the style of play.

The only other thing to infer from that is learning that you have to play all 3 zones in the NHL. Sven is still wildly inconsistent from shift to shift in that respect. There are very few NHL players that don't play all 3 zones effectively. They're trying to make him an NHL player, that's all.

Read more carefully.

Also, it's clear that Sven doesn't agree with the assessment and that's part of the problem. He doesn't feel he needs to be better, yet almost every observer would say he does need to be better, a lot better. With Sven it looks like he is developing a persecution complex, feeling that everything is personal with him. Clearly it's not, they're just tired of him dogging it when he can do so much more.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by nik-

Why would anyone expect him to try and play in the style that brought him success? They basically told the kid that they want him to be a different type of player.

No, they told him they wanted him to be a complete player. They didn't tell him to abandon intensity like it was heading for an iceberg.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

From that article:

Asked for an assessment of Baertschi’s play of late, Hartley said: “It’s been OK. With the puck, he’s pretty creative. But he’s a young player and we want more.”
Like what?
“Just overall,” replied Hartley. “Overall commitment to learn the game in the three zones. To come up with great efforts every game. I always mention (Montreal’s Brendan) Gallagher to him.
“It’s a matter of choice.”

[That sounds like the offseason criticism by Burke.]

Baertschi was understandably red-faced after a hard skate and was understandably not too happy with the development.
“Last game (in Phoenix, I didn’t play for about 20 minutes (through the middle of the contest),” he said. “I came back and was playing a few shifts and I thought I was playing well. I guess now they took me out.”

[Sounds like whining to me. And not exactly a willingness to accept criticism from the coach.]

Did you take a wrong quote or am I just missing the whining somewhere?

Asked a question, answered without a boring cliché.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

I'm sorry, are you talking about this?



Context my friend, he's referring to Gallagher's effort, and he's totally 100% correct. The biggest knock on Sven has been his internal motor. It's just not there. Gallagher has that in spades and that's what he's referring to. Not the style of play.

The only other thing to infer from that is learning that you have to play all 3 zones in the NHL. Sven is still wildly inconsistent from shift to shift in that respect. There are very few NHL players that don't play all 3 zones effectively. They're trying to make him an NHL player, that's all.

Read more carefully.

Also, it's clear that Sven doesn't agree with the assessment and that's part of the problem. He doesn't feel he needs to be better, yet almost every observer would say he does need to be better, a lot better. With Sven it looks like he is developing a persecution complex, feeling that everything is personal with him. Clearly it's not, they're just tired of him dogging it when he can do so much more.

lol

What a vivid imagination. If ANY other prospect received the treatment Sven gets from some posters here, in examples like this, where people just completely make #### up, the site would dogpile them. Somehow it's fine to just do it with this kid.

It's so odd. This year's whipping boy is not even really on the team.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Did you take a wrong quote or am I just missing the whining somewhere?

Asked a question, answered without a boring cliché.

I see "I was playing well...they took me out" as whining about being scratched. I also don't see what question that answers. I ddn't expect him to like being scratched - I also don't expect him to second guess the coach on it in public.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I see "I was playing well...they took me out" as whining about being scratched. I also don't see what question that answers. I ddn't expect him to like being scratched - I also don't expect him to second guess the coach on it in public.

He thought he was playing well. That's a pretty important word to pare out of your quote.

[dying4acup]

Worst case, Flames will qualify him.
If he signs and doesn't make the team next fall then he goes on waivers. Somebody WILL claim him.
If he doesn't sign, he can sign overseas, and the Flames retain his rights.

Best case, sometime between now and the fall Sven takes somebody's job and figures it out.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by nik-

He thought he was playing well. That's a pretty important word to pare out of your quote.

Right - he disagreed with the assessment.

Think about it:

Hartley: We are scratching you - we need a better compete level.
Sven: Well I thought I played well.

Can you not see the problem? Not only did he take that attitude, he made it public.

Compare it to Jooris on being scratched (in the other thread).

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Anyone who is missing the underlying tone in a lot of Sven's quotes to the media is intentionally missing it. Sure you can argue for absolutes in regards to quotes and statements that show "for sure" Sven isn't approaching this the right way, and if that's what you need to be convinced then fair enough I guess, it can't be found. The Sven quote that literally says "I'm playing well enough to be an NHL player, but they don't like me so they send me down" doesn't exist.

But anyone who has reasonable ability to interpret peoples feelings and thoughts, has a reasonable EQ and can pick up on what people are saying when they say it know that Sven actually feels like he's doing enough to be in the NHL and the Flames aren't letting him. And that's the problem, somewhere in his head, he's decided it's not me, it's them. Which is likely half the problem, he seem to feel victimized, which cannot be a good head space to be in for improving play.

And it does make a difference whether he drops those little hints in public or not. I have no problem if behind the scenes he feels he's getting the bums rush from the Flames, and if he chooses to challenge them a little on their choices. But the second he's feeling it enough that he's willing to say those little things in the media, it's an indication of just how much of the responsibility he feels is on him, versus the Flames, and given he's willing to hint at it with the media, it likely means he thinks the main reason he's not getting the NHL time he wants is because he's being treated un-fairly. A player (or anyone for that matter) who maybe feels there are things in their control to make it to the NHL, talk about those things in public versus the small part of them that also feels they aren't being treated fairly. As soon as someone lets them self go on being willing to share thoughts on a raw deal from their team has hit a point where they are starting to feel it's out of their control and literally can't even bring themselves to "say the right" thing in public. It's not that his statements are so damming, it's what they likely represent in regards to his head space that are concerning.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Right - he disagreed with the assessment.

Think about it:

Hartley: We are scratching you - we need a better compete level.
Sven: Well I thought I played well.

Can you not see the problem? Not only did he take that attitude, he made it public.

Compare it to Jooris on being scratched (in the other thread).

Does it matter what I think about it? You have a narrative built in your mind, nothing I say is going to change that.

You're going to see a problem no matter what. That's your deal.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by nik-

Does it matter what I think about it? You have a narrative built in your mind, nothing I say is going to change that.

You're going to see a problem no matter what. That's your deal.

Good grief. There was a dozen things a kid can say when being scratched for what seems like indifferent or inconsistent play, according to the coach.

"I thought I was playing well. I guess now they took me out" isn't one of them.

[nik-]

The kid wears his heart on his sleeve and doesn't give cliched hockey answers.

Lets ####ing skewer him for being honest instead of lying about it like the others do.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I see "I was playing well...they took me out" as whining about being scratched. I also don't see what question that answers. I ddn't expect him to like being scratched - I also don't expect him to second guess the coach on it in public.

I read it the same as you. Maybe in isolation, I wouldn't have, but it isn't the first time that he has played that card.

Honestly, he is being given a lot of rope due to being a first round pick. That he was kept up so long and now called up despite his poor production in the AHL are gifts and he is pissing them away. First rounder goodwill doesn't last forever. A lot of later round picks have to do a lot more than he has just to get sniff and often one or two chances is all they get.

I am pulling for him, I really am but he has to start making good on his chances. He is all talk right now.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by nik-

Does it matter what I think about it? You have a narrative built in your mind, nothing I say is going to change that.

You're going to see a problem no matter what. That's your deal.

I would say the exact same thing about you. You largely made up a lot of stuff out of that quote earlier suggesting they were asking Sven to change his playing style, rather than his compete level or overall consistency in all 3 zones. I hate playing this game of "he meant this" because it's a he said/she said thing.

What it boils down to is Sven is not maturing much, and while he is improving his overall game, it's not at an NHL level yet. I would argue that under this current regime many, many more guys have figured it out than those who haven't, so the onus is on Sven to prove himself right, not the organization.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I'll ask a question in regards to Sven. I agree, there is some confidence mental issue going on there. And for the record, I don't think he's at a do or die point.

But, people keep wondering, what happened to Sven, but I'm a little bit thinking did anything "happen" to him. He certainly found ways to get some points in his first stint I the NHL, and I have a tough time saying that it was all luck, or good fortune. But, part of me feels like it might just have been and he was just putting up points at a pace not reflective of his play.

I say that, because even in his first stint in the NHL, the points were there, but as a fan watching the games, I don't recall ever taking notice of Sven's play, other than when you noticed he got some points. What I mean by that, is take Gaudreau for example, when he's playing so far this year, points or not, you notice the things he's doing on the ice, and you go, wow, that kids got something. Totally understand Sven's not as flashy as a player as Johnny, so that's part of it, but at the same time I think there's something to it.

Same thing with Monahan last year. He's a much more boring player than Johnny, easier to miss, but even last year, points or no points you notice him doing things on the ice, whether the points come or not that just gave you faith he was going to be the real deal.

At the NHL level, I never noticed Sven in the same way. I noticed his points per game were good, which hey, is huge. But at the same time he was never really a "noticeable" guy on the ice, so you were left wondering a bit why he was getting his points. I wonder if his early numbers weren't actually that reflective of his play, and he hasn't actually fallen off as much as we think.

Funny, I've always thought the same thing of him but never wanted to mention it due to fear of backlash amongst the ''he's a 0.5 ppg player in the NHL'' crowd. Players go on hot streaks all the time. His 3 goals in 5 games was just that. A couple seasons ago he had that 8 game point streak to end the season, after scoring just a single point in the previous 13. Another hot streak. Some players have high compete level, and some don't. Sadly I think Bart is in the latter. Deep down, I always felt that Sven was kind of lucky to get those points and it had more to do with being in the right place/right time then it was due to his hard work. I honestly think that Bart will be a late bloomer ala Backlund. I just hope the Flames and fans/media alike stay patient with him until that times arrives.