Fire & Ice Girls: Sexist Anachronism?

[Bunk]

My opinion is that it's questionable to have the Fire & Ice girls as is.

Here's why I think that - here you have two sexes performing a job to clear the ice. One is overtly sexualized by virtue of their skimpy clothing (anyone who denies this for flimsy reasons like they exert themselves more than the men is fooling themselves) and the other is not.

Some also suggested that this is somehow evening things up because you have a bunch of men skating around the ice playing hockey. But their sexiness is not a primary, secondary or even tertiary function of what they're doing. If people find it sexy, it's incidental.

I think the objectification is less about the particular girls choosing the job than it is about the audience. For instance, young girls, looking at this and deriving their understanding the role of women, body image, what they need to do to attract boys - all that kind of stuff which leads to troubles with some girls/women. Second is those who may view (perhaps subconsciously) that ogling and objectifying women is generally OK because an organization as prominent as the Flames seems to be condoning it. It seems to reinforce that culture.

Sexualization is not an inherent problem, but the situation and its nuances I think can mean the sexualisation or objectification is a bad thing.

[Ne7en]

Some of you really need to get a grip..
Complaining about what the flames ice girls are wearing is silly. News Flash, young females dress to look attractive. Doesn't matter if they are employed by the flames, it's a business. They are also employed at grocery stores, restaurants, pubs, you see them in malls, in fact you see them everywhere. Do you even leave your house? Some of you act like they are out there skating topless, heaven forbid you ever cross paths with a nude beach. The only thing disgusting about this topic is the people with archaic minds who are publicly shaming these young women.

[Itse]

I consider the F&I girls to be the same as cheerleaders, which IMO bring the atmosphere down, not up. But I don't really care much. As far as issues of sexism in the society go, they IMO rank really really low.

But dear gods if this thread does not make people who defend F&I girls look terrible. I'm not sure if even once anyone has actually made an argument that is in response to actual criticism presented here, pretty much just strawman after hyperbole after strawman. Ridiculous overreactions, people getting all riled up and aggressive over nothing, constant borderline or veiled ad hominems and numerous comments that are just so incredibly ignorant in their rampant sexism that I would not even know where to start if I had an interest in responding to them. But then again there really isn't much point, this is just such a textbook case of "they're doing it to themselves".

Just wow.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Itse

I consider the F&I girls to be the same as cheerleaders, which IMO bring the atmosphere down, not up. But I don't really care much. As far as issues of sexism in the society go, they IMO rank really really low.

But dear gods if this thread does not make people who defend F&I girls look terrible. I'm not sure if even once anyone has actually made an argument that is in response to actual criticism presented here, pretty much just strawman after hyperbole after strawman. Ridiculous overreactions, people getting all riled up and aggressive over nothing, constant borderline or veiled ad hominems and numerous comments that are just so incredibly ignorant in their rampant sexism that I would not even know where to start if I had an interest in responding to them. But then again there really isn't much point, this is just such a textbook case of "they're doing it to themselves".

Just wow.

Stop oppressing a womans females right to choose you horrible #######.

[Raekwon]

Originally Posted by Ne7en

Some of you really need to get a grip..
Complaining about what the flames ice girls are wearing is silly. News Flash, young females dress to look attractive. Doesn't matter if they are employed by the flames, it's a business. They are also employed at grocery stores, restaurants, pubs, you see them in malls, in fact you see them everywhere. Do you even leave your house? Some of you act like they are out there skating topless, heaven forbid you ever cross paths with a nude beach. The only thing disgusting about this topic is the people with archaic minds who are publicly shaming these young women.

Do they need to wear that clothing to do their job? how about waitresses? Do they want to dress like that or is that what society wants so they are pressured to do it. I'm sure some want to do it and some just do it to not cause waves. Why is it silly to complain about what they are wearing? Its their choice to get that job but once there they don't have a choice of what they wear.

Then on the other hand you have women in Russia protesting for the right to wear less clothing. Our biggest flaw is trying to lump everyone together and trying to determine what's best for them.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Let's look at a few of your gems:

"I can't say any of this is certain or true, but when significant amounts money are involved, I have a hard time believing that the decisions are genuinely made for the benefit of society and not for the benefit of the owners' pockets.

Obviously if I had a huge issue with it, I wouldn't be a member here and I am completely on board with the forum making money any way it can. I just don't buy all the cuddly crap and and I get a good chuckle at it because I feel money is corrupting the genuine nature of the recent decisions."

"Well nothing you say with respect to the revenue of the forum holds any wight unless you open up the books; that's assuming you've ever seen them and are not talking out of your you know what."

"I don't believe much of your mod jibber jabber with respect to the motivation behind decisions and the true revenue of the site and I'm not required to in order to be a member or to enjoy the CP community just like you don't have to give a rats butt about anything I say nor do you need to address it. "

"Sounds like jibber jabber when you have no evidence to support your statements."

Each and every single quote indicates that unless Bingo and the moderation team "open the books" that they are lying about their revenue. They don't have to do this because they don't owe you anything.

I hope Bingo makes a fantastic living off of Calgary Puck - he (and the moderation team) have provided a wonderful forum that I've enjoyed for 8 years. I am grateful for that. Are there times where they make decisions that I disagree with? Yes. However, it is not a democracy here. It is often quite democratic but that doesn't make it a democracy.

The moderation team decided to take steps to help Calgary Puck more inclusive because there are some amazing women contributors here and I think it would be good to have more of them. They've challenged posters to be more cognizant of what they post and how their posts will impact others. I think that is a great thing. If you don't like it, it is your prerogative to leave.

Since I know they won't discuss their financials, nor should they because its none of his business, let me attempt to give an honest view on what running a site like this is like.

I am a part owner in a site that ranks in the top 500 message boards in the world, has many millions of visits a month, and our hosting bill alone goes as high as 5000 usd a month.

We actually went and sought out sponsors that wanted access to our unique and specific website to advertise, we did not use some generic ones which most websites use, those do not bring in much money at all, even on bigger sites.

I can tell you with this website's traffic and the type of ads and deals I assume they made for some of the sponsored forums like the realtor one, this site is likely just making enough extra to save up for upgrades to the server(s).

They could make potentially a lot more money, by reaching out to specific businesses in the Calgary area that would want access to Calgary specific market, but they don't, which tells me these guys are not in this for the money, just the love of the community.

Hell even if they did go more into ADs, good on them, you work hard to build and grow a site like this they deserve nothing but good things from it, not snide and suspicious jabs by people like stanathan who don't have a clue what kind of money is behind a site like this.... *spoiler* its not much.

[Ducay]

Fire and Ice girls wear skimpy clothes because men like looking at ladies like that, and in turn enjoy the game more, and thus come to more games. Flames make more money and pay the woemn appropriate amounts to act as sexualized objects.

Its all business baby.

[Wastedyouth]

I must be old. This is a silly argument to me.

[manwiches]

this thread is ridiculous.

As stated prior, since when does dressing up and showing a bit of their body constitute slut shaming? Women that do this (and men for that matter) are confident in their bodies. So be it. It's up to parents to teach their kids values about what is appropriate for them, and also to be strong, independent, and confident members of society.

I know a girl who still does F&I. I played hockey with her, she works at an O&G company, and does it because she a) gets to be at every single Flames game and b) she's attractive and confident, and enjoys showing off a bit of what she's worked hard at the gym for. And she is by no stretch of the imagination a skank. She dresses like every other typical female around Calgary.

[PsYcNeT]

Mods can we please add a poll. I'd like to know who won the moral high ground in this thread.

TIA.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by manwiches

this thread is ridiculous.

As stated prior, since when does dressing up and showing a bit of their body constitute slut shaming? Women that do this (and men for that matter) are confident in their bodies. So be it. It's up to parents to teach their kids values about what is appropriate for them, and also to be strong, independent, and confident members of society.

I know a girl who still does F&I. I played hockey with her, she works at an O&G company, and does it because she a) gets to be at every single Flames game and b) she's attractive and confident, and enjoys showing off a bit of what she's worked hard at the gym for. And she is by no stretch of the imagination a skank. She dresses like every other typical female around Calgary.

Slut shaming is when people judge and try to belittle women for dressing or acting a certain way. Such as an earlier poster saying he did not want these 'skanks' to be role models for his daughter.

What this really is is a personal free will debate. Most posters, myself included, believe that grown ass women can take whatever legal job they'd like. And many of these poster know girls who have worked as cheerleaders and f and I girls and enjoyed the job

The vocal minority is taking the viewpoint that the fire and ice girls are simply mouthbreathing idiots who are being exploited by a sexist society and have no personal free will

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

The vocal minority is taking the viewpoint that the fire and ice girls are simply mouthbreathing idiots who are being exploited by a sexist society and have no personal free will

I assume you're the vocal minority, considering you're the first person to suggest that.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

I assume you're the vocal minority, considering you're the first person to suggest that.

Are you going to address the issue of personal choice or just continue with the the drivebys?

[Wormius]

No one is slut shaming these girls, we are shaming the Flames organization because they are no different than Hooters was for their hiring practices.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by Wormius

No one is slut shaming these girls, we are shaming the Flames organization because they are no different than Hooters was for their hiring practices.

To be honest, I was at a Red Wings game a couple weeks back, and they have their ice crew half men, half women, all in full clothes, and no real hiring practices (ie plus sized girls), and it didn't detract from the game but it also didn't add to the game. (They also all wore helmets that were not done up and it looked like a special ed class. Those helmets would save nobody if they fell).

I decided then that I did miss the Fire & ice girls and they made it a better game experience, because who doesn't like a little ogling in the TV timeouts, amirite?

Props to the Flames for sticking to their business instincts and giving me a product I enjoy more.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

The vocal minority is taking the viewpoint that the fire and ice girls are simply mouthbreathing idiots who are being exploited by a sexist society and have no personal free will

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Are you going to address the issue of personal choice or just continue with the the drivebys?

I'll address the issue that only you believe isn't being considered if you form opinions on the other side based on what they're actually saying.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Wormius

No one is slut shaming these girls, we are shaming the Flames organization because they are no different than Hooters was for their hiring practices.

I think this is a little over the top.

[DuffMan]

I like girls.

[Thor]

That is ignorant and racist!!