Godless Apostate

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by troutman

Was "Noah's Ark" a re-telling of a meme that was passed around from Mesopotamia to the Mediterranean? The writer of the account in the Old Testament might have thought it had a historical basis.

I don't think "meme" is a great word to accurately describe it. In an essentially pre-literate (or "pre-textualised") culture, the conventional idea of a "meme" does not really encapsulate the power and the seriousness of ancient mythology. These were not instinctive ideas. These were perceived to be verifiable truths, and they were maintained and transmitted with very deliberate intentions to arrive at a culturally and technologically palatable explanation for the stories themselves.

So, yes. There is nothing really to suggest that anyone who wrote about the flood myth considered it anything other than an actual event, including the biblical author, who took great pains to weave together two alternative versions of what was basically the same story. Now, that is not to say that there was not a great deal of metaphor applied to the retelling of the myth. Rather, ancient Near Eastern perspectives of history were grounded in the idea that events were ALL pregnant with deeper meanings.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths

Flood myths were likely part of the oral tradition in ancient Mesopotamia (among other regions), with specific details and characters changing across cultures over many centuries like a giant game of telephone.

No. NOT LIKE TELEPHONE! The analogy is bankrupt because it puts forward the idea that changes which occur within the transmission of ancient myths is always unintentional, and often prone to produce nonsense. People took these stories far too seriously to allow them to change or develop incidentally.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

No. NOT LIKE TELEPHONE! The analogy is bankrupt because it puts forward the idea that changes which occur within the transmission of ancient myths is always unintentional, and often prone to produce nonsense. People took these stories far too seriously to allow them to change or develop incidentally.

I didn't intend to imply that changes to myths across cultures were purely unintentional. What I meant with the telephone metaphor is that there may have been an "original" Mesopotamian flood myth but it was changed and adapted over centuries as different cultures modified the story, so in the end the base myth is relatively unchanged (a great flood -- which may or may not have been an actual historical event -- is sent by the god(s) to destroy civilization) but specific details and characters vary greatly depending on the region and culture re-telling the story.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I didn't intend to imply that changes to myths across cultures were purely unintentional. What I meant with the telephone metaphor is that there may have been an "original" Mesopotamian flood myth but it was changed and adapted over centuries as different cultures modified the story, so in the end the base myth is relatively unchanged (a great flood -- which may or may not have been an actual historical event -- is sent by the god(s) to destroy civilization) but specific details and characters vary greatly depending on the region and culture re-telling the story.

Fair enough. You will forgive me for the knee-jerk reaction. It is borne of years of teaching religious studies and the unbelievable frustration that the telephone analogy creates among first and second year undergraduates.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I didn't intend to imply that changes to myths across cultures were purely unintentional. What I meant with the telephone metaphor is that there may have been an "original" Mesopotamian flood myth but it was changed and adapted over centuries as different cultures modified the story, so in the end the base myth is relatively unchanged (a great flood -- which may or may not have been an actual historical event -- is sent by the god(s) to destroy civilization) but specific details and characters vary greatly depending on the region and culture re-telling the story.

In reality, Noah had a row boat and took his 2 dogs for a little ride.

Retelling of the story has turned it into something bigger.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

In reality, Noah had a row boat and took his 2 dogs for a little ride.

Retelling of the story has turned it into something bigger.

Shush, the grown-ups in the room are trying to have a conversation here.

[Thor]

If that massive flood did occur, it would have been something incredible and would have been a pervasive story throughout the ages, Ballard's discoveries in the black sea really seem to give credence to this being the basis of all the flood stories from that age.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Shush, the grown-ups in the room are trying to have a conversation here.

Oh, haha , I love that one. You really belittled me to the point of embarassment. You people are way too smart for me, and are just all around,,,better.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Thor

If that massive flood did occur, it would have been something incredible and would have been a pervasive story throughout the ages, Ballard's discoveries in the black sea really seem to give credence to this being the basis of all the flood stories from that age.

like an ice age?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Thor

If that massive flood did occur, it would have been something incredible and would have been a pervasive story throughout the ages, Ballard's discoveries in the black sea really seem to give credence to this being the basis of all the flood stories from that age.

The wikipedia article I linked earlier lists several possible explanations for a historical great flood, such as rising sea levels following the last ice age, a large meteorite or comet impacting the Indian Ocean, or a tsunami in the Mediterranean Sea caused by a massive volcanic eruption.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Thor

If that massive flood did occur, it would have been something incredible and would have been a pervasive story throughout the ages, Ballard's discoveries in the black sea really seem to give credence to this being the basis of all the flood stories from that age.

Yeah, maybe. Although I'm more of the opinion that there was no definable single event that produced the story. People who lived in coastal plains and river deltas were intimately familiar with seasonal flooding and overflows from storms. Ancient people tended to be both awestruck and terrified of the sea: it was seemingly endless and insurmountable. It is no coincidence that their cosmologies and creation myths featured water as an antagonistic threat to civilisation and human survival. The Atrahasis / Noah flood story is no different: it was likely a representation of well known catastrophic destruction that flooding caused, but then taken to another level in which the gods or a chosen great man stood vicarious over this great enemy.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Thor

I'm curious TC since you are living with us nordic people now, do you prefer the Nordic Christians to what you've experienced in North America?...

FYI: I'm thinking this over and will write later.

[Thor]

That black sea flood would have been biblical though, the amount of water, the sheer size and scale is incredible to imagine.

[Textcritic]

^
Does anyone else find it funny that Thor is the one pushing for an historical "biblical" flood while I am arguing for no precise factual basis behind the ANE flood myths?

Oh, the irony.

[Dion]

Archaeologist who found the Titanic claims Biblical flood DID happen 12,000 years ago

• Acclaimed oceanographer Robert Ballard says he has found evidence
• Claims massive flood happened in Black Sea region around 5600BC
• Waters cascaded down Turkey's Straits of Bospurus and into sea
  
• It is believed to have started story of Noah, which was then passed on

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...years-ago.html

[DuffMan]

So, there is a lot of speculation etc, on how and where and why the flood happened, but no one is stepping up and saying it was God/Jesus's responsibility. This is what I find interesting. I'm sure something along the lines of a flood happened at some point, but how did it turn into the story of Noah, the animals, and God's vindictiveness?

when you question this, where does the doubt and questioning end?

btw, I love this pic, from Dions link, it's like Dr. Who's telephone booth.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Dion

Archaeologist who found the Titanic claims Biblical flood DID happen 12,000 years ago

• Acclaimed oceanographer Robert Ballard says he has found evidence
• Claims massive flood happened in Black Sea region around 5600BC
• Waters cascaded down Turkey's Straits of Bospurus and into sea
  
• It is believed to have started story of Noah, which was then passed on

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...years-ago.html

Doesn't the flood myth in The Epic of Gilgamesh pre-date the story of Noah as told in Genesis? That is, the tale of Noah's Ark isn't the original flood myth, but likely an adaptation of an earlier story.

[Edit]
Dion's link actually mentions this explicitly:

Many biblical scholars believe the story of Noah and the Ark was inspired by the legendary flood stories of nearby Mesopotamia, in particular 'The Epic of Gilgamesh.'

These ancient narratives were already being passed down from one generation to the next, centuries before Noah appeared in the Bible.

'The earlier Mesopotamian stories are very similar where the gods are sending a flood to wipe out humans,' said biblical archaeologist Eric Cline.

'There's one man they choose to survive. He builds a boat and brings on animals and lands on a mountain and lives happily ever after? I would argue that it's the same story.'

[troutman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_4vMr3pCg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pxckz5Yevo

[troutman]

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandre...pectives1.html

150 FLOODS As Joseph Campbell and other folklorists and anthropologists have noted, similar myths pop up again and again in disparate cultures-some societies can be on opposite ends of the globe from one another, yet their stories and legends will inevitably make use of some of the same symbols, themes, and motifs. Indeed, author Anne Provoost, who has written a retelling of the Noah's Ark story, notes that "almost every culture has a mythological story of flood." Indeed, there are more 150 ancient flood myths that have been documented around the world. (See Flood Myths for a list.)

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Dion

Archaeologist who found the Titanic claims Biblical flood DID happen 12,000 years ago

• Acclaimed oceanographer Robert Ballard says he has found evidence
• Claims massive flood happened in Black Sea region around 5600BC
• Waters cascaded down Turkey's Straits of Bospurus and into sea
  
• It is believed to have started story of Noah, which was then passed on

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...years-ago.html

I don't buy it.

Good for Ballard for expertly identifying a geological event that happened 7500 years ago, but it is foolish to try to connect this to the biblical flood myth. My biggest problem with this idea is precisely because it occurred so long ago. 5600 B.C.E. predates virtually every form of ancient writing, and every known urban settlement. This was in the middle of the neolithic period when people were still predominantly hunters and gatherers. I just do not believe that there is the necessary social and cultural infrastructure to sustain a complex myth like the ANE flood stories for the following +2000 years at minimum before it was first put to writing. No, it's much more likely that the flood stories developed from much more closely contemporary events than this.