Police investigate after violent video of Wal-Mart takedown

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by codynw

I'm obviously not going to change anyone's mind, but the fact that people aren't angered by the fact that Wal Mart employees can legally use force to detain suspected shoplifters blows my mind. I don't know how a single person is okay with that.

I don't know how you let it get to the point that they feel they need to use force.


If you haven't stolen anything and have nothing to hide, go back and discuss the situation with them, then there is no force issue to even discuss.

[polak]

Yeah they can detain you, but again, if it turns out they had no reason to detain you, then you could sue?

[codynw]

Serious question, if I catch someone in my house stealing things, am I legally allowed to do anything about it (beyond calling the police)?

I have a feeling I already know the answer.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by polak

Yeah they can detain you, but again, if it turns out they had no reason to detain you, then you could sue?

Using common sense to answer your question I would say yes.


Could you successfully sue? Well that is another question.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by codynw

Serious question, if I catch someone in my house stealing things, am I legally allowed to do anything about it (beyond calling the police)?

I have a feeling I already know the answer.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/o...tre/wyntk.html

In special circumstances of any type of criminal offence that is committed on or in relation to your property, you may either:

• arrest a person you find in the act of committing a crime; or
• arrest a person within a reasonable period of time after having found that person committing a crime.

To be eligible to make a citizen's arrest for a crime on or in relation to property, you must be one of the following:

• the owner of the property;
• in lawful possession of the property; or
• have been authorized by the owner or the person in lawful possession of the property.

The law allows you to use as much force as is necessary for the purpose of making a citizen's arrest, as long as you are acting on reasonable grounds. However, any force you use must be tailored to the circumstances, and you are criminally responsible for any excess force you use. In addition to the potential for a criminal prosecution, you may also face a civil lawsuit in relation to your conduct and any injury you cause.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by codynw

Serious question, if I catch someone in my house stealing things, am I legally allowed to do anything about it (beyond calling the police)?

I have a feeling I already know the answer.

Yes, you can make a citizen arrest.

The people in this video don't have legal grounds to arrest this person because they were Wal-Mart employees, they had the same legal grounds as everyone else.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/o...tre/wyntk.html

It's usually store policies to prevent violent confrontation because of liability issues and the like, but anyone is entitled to perform a citizen arrest. Need to be careful that it doesn't become unlawful though.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

The people in this video don't have legal grounds to arrest this person because they were Wal-Mart employees, they had the same legal grounds as everyone else.

According to the story they are licenced to arrest without warrant.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Jacks

According to the story they are licenced to arrest without warrant.

You're not licenced, but you're capable of arresting people as well. Learn your rights. (Sounded more snarky than I meant, sorry)

[nieuwy-89]

The punk got what he deserved. I approve.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

You're not licenced, but you're capable of arresting people as well. Learn your rights. (Sounded more snarky than I meant, sorry)

I think I read what you said wrong, I thought you were saying they didn't have the right to make the arrest.

[Canehdianman]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Yes, they are authorized to detain without a warrant, and yes they can physically grab you.

I'm no expert on the matter, but I believe that they really have no more power than a regular citizen when it comes to arrest/search/detaining of people.

They cannot detain you unless they arrest you (I think that might be what you meant by 'without a warrant'). They can only arrest you when they witness a criminal offence on or in relation to the property which they are authorized to protect (for example breaking and entering or vandalism).

An LPO doesn't even have the power to detain if (s)he suspects you of shoplifting. If they didn't witness it, they have no legal power to detain you.

That being said, don't shoplift and then stab someone.

[wretched34]

I'm with undercoverbrother on this one.
If I was approached by LPO's in a parking lot, and accused of shoplifting, and had not done so, the last thing I would do is start a confrontation. Stay calm, do as they ask, let them do their job, and you're on your way.
Losing your mind, and starting a physical altercation, when you're outnumbered is a bad start, then pulling a concealed weapon, and using it, well, now you're in real trouble.
Weather the guy shoplifted or not, is no longer the issue, the assault with a deadly weapon or possibly attempted murder is what you're being dragged into court for.

A person capable of pulling a knife, and using it on another person, over suspected shoplifting is a dangerous person, and 100% deserved a beating. That is not self defense, that is a crime.

[Canehdianman]

Originally Posted by wretched34

I'm with undercoverbrother on this one.
If I was approached by LPO's in a parking lot, and accused of shoplifting, and had not done so, the last thing I would do is start a confrontation. Stay calm, do as they ask, let them do their job, and you're on your way.
Losing your mind, and starting a physical altercation, when you're outnumbered is a bad start, then pulling a concealed weapon, and using it, well, now you're in real trouble.
Weather the guy shoplifted or not, is no longer the issue, the assault with a deadly weapon or possibly attempted murder is what you're being dragged into court for.

A person capable of pulling a knife, and using it on another person, over suspected shoplifting is a dangerous person, and 100% deserved a beating. That is not self defense, that is a crime.

The problem with your argument, is that once you remove the shoplifting from the equation, it's two guys jumping another guy in the parking lot.

Pulling a knife in that situation is self-defense.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

The problem with your argument, is that once you remove the shoplifting from the equation, it's two guys jumping another guy in the parking lot.

Pulling a knife in that situation is self-defense.

But you can't remove shop lifting from the equation

And pulling a knife in this country and stabbing someone isn't considered self defense.

Its considered a felony.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Jacks

I think I read what you said wrong, I thought you were saying they didn't have the right to make the arrest.

Oh, yeah sorry I got confused on the poster. We're on the same page I just worded it very poorly.

Codynw made a post about what he can do in the event of someone stealing his stuff. In that case he could make a citizen arrest. (It was him I meant to suggest to learn his rights just in case).

I think the licence they have just gives the employees permission to arrest (a citizen arrest) without it having to be their property.

[Ben_in_Canada]

These guys weren't the door greeters, they were Loss Prevention Officers.
They don't detain people without good cause and they know their actions will be questioned when the offender goes to court for prosecution.

[wretched34]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

The problem with your argument, is that once you remove the shoplifting from the equation, it's two guys jumping another guy in the parking lot.

Pulling a knife in that situation is self-defense.

I haven't watched the video, so don't know exactly how it started, did the LPO's identify themselves and ask him to stop, or did they simply run out of the store behind him and jump on him and start beating him with no warning?

I don't agree that pulling an illegal weapon on someone is self defense.
The way I see it, again, is a person carrying an illegal weapon, and having the capability to use it on a person, in a circumstance like this, is a dangerous person. Especially if they had not committed the shoplifting.
If he was innocent of shoplifting, getting jumped by Wal-Mart LPO's is like winning the effing lottery, the law suit to follow would have made him rich beyond his wildest dreams. But he threw that out the window when he attempted to kill a guy.

[Canehdianman]

Originally Posted by wretched34

I haven't watched the video, so don't know exactly how it started, did the LPO's identify themselves and ask him to stop, or did they simply run out of the store behind him and jump on him and start beating him with no warning?

I don't agree that pulling an illegal weapon on someone is self defense.
The way I see it, again, is a person carrying an illegal weapon, and having the capability to use it on a person, in a circumstance like this, is a dangerous person. Especially if they had not committed the shoplifting.
If he was innocent of shoplifting, getting jumped by Wal-Mart LPO's is like winning the effing lottery, the law suit to follow would have made him rich beyond his wildest dreams. But he threw that out the window when he attempted to kill a guy.

The video just starts with the fight already underway. No way to know if they properly identified themselves or actually arrested the knife-wielder from it.

[Canehdianman]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But you can't remove shop lifting from the equation

And pulling a knife in this country and stabbing someone isn't considered self defense.

Its considered a felony.

If two guys are attacking you, including restraining you (so you can't leave) and hitting you, it is without a doubt self-defense to use a knife to defend yourself.

It will also never be a felony in this country. Canada doesn't have felonies, we have summary offenses and indictable offenses (and hybrids, which can be either of the others).

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Ben_in_Canada

These guys weren't the door greeters, they were Loss Prevention Officers.
They don't detain people without good cause and they know their actions will be questioned when the offender goes to court for prosecution.

I am surprised by the lack of "rent-a-cop" comments in this thread.