Could Putin turn into a modern day Hitler?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

While the era and cultural mindset are different, there are a lot of similarities that you can draw between Hitler and Putin. One thing to note though Putin grew up in an era that is radically different than post WWI 20s and 30s era and the world is a much more open-minded and cosmopolitan place than it was back then. There are still enough to make the similarities concerning to to say the least between pre-WWII Hitler and modern Putin. These include:

• Both came to power during times of extreme economic hardship and claimed success in turning the economy around
• Both were democratically elected but subverted the democratic processes to maintain power and control over government
• Both started re-militarization and modernization of their armed forces once in power
• Both started a campaign of minority prosecution once in power to use as a scapegoat for the states problems (yes I know not anywhere near the degree... but times are different now as I said earlier)
• Both have started youth programs aimed at training and militarization of youth... wikipedia Nashi and Hitler Jugend
• Both are trying to redefine borders based on treaties, outside of their control, which left their ethnic populations trapped outside of their national borders. Poland, Austria, Denmark vs. Lithuania, Ukraine, etc.
• Both launched "soft" invasions/intervention of neighbouring countries using oppression of ethnic Russians/German as an excuse. See Austria, Sudentenland vs. current Ukraine
• Both signed treaties claiming they had no territorial ambitions that proved false afterwards. Hitler signed the Munich agreements and Putin signed treaties in 94 and 97 guaranteeing Ukraine and Crimea's borders. Lavrov as recently as half a year ago claimed "Russia has no plans to invade the south-east regions of Ukraine"
• Both claimed concern about unrest and violence in a region when evidence shows that they were both directly involved in causing or encouraging the unrest and violence
• Both annexed territory without declaration of war. See Crimea vs. Austria, the Sudetenland
• Both are interested in neutralizing key strategic problems on their borders. Hitler wanted to neutralize Czechoslovakia as a French/British ally and Putin has done the same with both Georgia and Ukraine and the West

There are a lot of similarities between Russia and Pre-WWII Germany, but you can't really compare the similarities without comparing the differences as well... there isn't the level of persecution or prejudice that the Nazi party was responsible for. Will he do anything close to Hitler in that regard, I'd say no... but yea, still lots of parallels you can draw here.

Just glancing over your list, I see many of those would also apply to GWB and the USA (edit: with a slight change in wording).

Not that I really think that GWB should be compared to either, but just saying that a list of this nature is very subjective in what gets included.

[Itse]

I think one of great tragedies of history is the way the West reacted to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Way too much gloating, cashing in and grabbing power, way too little co-operation, respectful diplomacy and support of a struggling nation.

History could have been very different, and much better, if we'd had better leaders at that point.

[nik-]

Wasn't most of that cash and power grabbing happening in the former Soviet Union though? An extreme capitalist reaction to years of economic oppression with zero regard for the citizenry. It continues today except with the added longing for the return of the Russian Empire ... and the people just eat it up. They have what they deserve.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by Itse

I think one of great tragedies of history is the way the West reacted to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Way too much gloating, cashing in and grabbing power, way too little co-operation, respectful diplomacy and support of a struggling nation.

History could have been very different, and much better, if we'd had better leaders at that point.

Very true. There was just too much money to be made.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by nik-

Wasn't most of that cash and power grabbing happening in the former Soviet Union though? An extreme capitalist reaction to years of economic oppression with zero regard for the citizenry. It continues today except with the added longing for the return of the Russian Empire ... and the people just eat it up. They have what they deserve.

After the collapse the mafia and Oligarchs took over, and still today the Oligarchs are major influencers of power and policy, even Putin has to bow down to some of these guys.

The corruption is so bad out there, any Canadian company working out there can tell you about that, getting pulled over by the cops means your going to have to pay to get released.

My brother in law works for Icelandair, 1 month of the year he's sent out to work in Russia, last time he was out there he was pulled over for nothing, taken to a police station where the police tried to coerce money out of him, this is in Moscow. He refused, stood fast, and eventually they let him go.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Thor

After the collapse the mafia and Oligarchs took over, and still today the Oligarchs are major influencers of power and policy, even Putin has to bow down to some of these guys.

The corruption is so bad out there, any Canadian company working out there can tell you about that, getting pulled over by the cops means your going to have to pay to get released.

My brother in law works for Icelandair, 1 month of the year he's sent out to work in Russia, last time he was out there he was pulled over for nothing, taken to a police station where the police tried to coerce money out of him, this is in Moscow. He refused, stood fast, and eventually they let him go.

They have a saying over there that during the communist days, they had politicians and mafia. After communism fell, they only have politicians.

[Ducay]

If this were 60-100 years ago, yes, but now given the world economy, Russia would be in ruin within years economically if they closed off all ties to international trade.

[Locke]

Not until he starts up a 'men-only' barbershop.

[FlameOn]

A bit on the crazy train today, but a Russian general wants changes to Russia's military doctrine to include pre-emptive nuclear strikes against NATO nations.

A Russian general has called for Russia to revamp its military doctrine, last updated in 2010, to clearly identify the U.S. and its NATO allies as Moscow's enemy number one and spell out the conditions under which Russia would launch a preemptive nuclear strike against the 28-member military alliance, Interfax reported Wednesday.

Russia's military doctrine — a strategy document through which the government interprets military threats and crafts possible responses — is being revised in light of threats connected to the Arab Spring, Syrian civil war, and the conflict in Ukraine, the deputy chief of the Kremlin's security council told RIA Novosti on Tuesday.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/busine...to/506370.html

[nik-]

hahaha well there we go I guess.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Hitler was a paranoid lunatic that fanatically (but sincerely) believed in his ideological crap. Putin is a calculating SOB with imperial ambitions of restoring the former greatness of the Russian Empire/USSR. He believes that Russia was suppressed by the West (i.e. US) long enough in the 90's after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the world power balance needs to be restored back to the former equilibrium. He will likely push until he meets resistance strong enough to start a war; then he'll stop. This is the biggest difference.

Bolded - what many people assumed of Hitler in the 30s. Dictators can be very hard to predict. If 12 months ago someone said Putin would invade Ukraine I wouldn't have believed it.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Gwynne Dyer doesn't think so:

No, Vladimir Putin is not another Adolf Hitler

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Does he have the balls to go after a NATO country? Maybe Finland should join up? I think Belarus is already a client state but maybe he'll make it officially a part of Russia. I'm not sure of the status of the Stan countries but those could be his next target.

You do understand that more NATO countries along the border of Russia is an absolute disaster waiting to happen? Like the OP said, he's got 8000 nukes at his disposal. Maybe some less antagonistic policies would be the right decision here. I don't want to go to war with Russia.

I certainly don't want to go to war with Russia because America subverted a democratically elected government that happened to not align with their way of thinking, and deliberately antagonized Russia in the process.

If Putin attempted to destablise mexico and then endorsed whatever puppet regime ascended to power next, America would be reacting the exact same way.

Russia is a nuclear superpower. That has certain privileges. Everyone needs to back away and call it a win. We're all still here.

[Street Pharmacist]

Are you saying NATO or America destabilized Ukraine?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Are you saying NATO or America destabilized Ukraine?

I think that is arguable.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Itse

I think one of great tragedies of history is the way the West reacted to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Way too much gloating, cashing in and grabbing power, way too little co-operation, respectful diplomacy and support of a struggling nation.

History could have been very different, and much better, if we'd had better leaders at that point.

I just recently read a book or essay that describes just that, but am having a terrible time racking my brain trying to remember the title or the author.

Son of a...

Edit: it was an old article in the nation:

NATO expansion does little or nothing to insure the cooperation or constraint from Russia that will be necessary to solve these conflicts. Indeed, it provides the opposite incentive: for Russia to compete in those areas not formally part of NATO and to exclude NATO from any involvement in areas of vital Russian interest. Russian nationalists could reasonably ask: Since the NATO-Russia agreement gives Moscow little or no say in its own area of interest, why should Moscow allow the United States to have a say in areas bordering Russia and in its sphere of influence?…

What is worse, NATO expansion threatens to create tensions and conflicts in the heart of Central and Eastern Europe that would otherwise not exist. For example, expansion puts back into geopolitical play most of the nations that are to be excluded from the first round of enlargement, making them again potential objects of renewed East-West rivalry. The Clinton Administration justifies NATO enlargement in part as an effort to avoid a new security vacuum in Central Europe, but even as it removes some countries from East-West competition it only increases the potential intensity of the rivalry over others, like the Baltic states and Ukraine. As NATO expands to include Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary, the exclusion of the Baltic states from NATO membership and Ukraine from a NATO sphere of influence will become even more important goals of Russian foreign policy.

http://thenation.s3.amazonaws.com/pd...gement1997.pdf

[FlamesAddiction]

The problem I have with that is that Russia has a long history of subjugating and colonizing their neighbours long before NATO ever existed. The desire for the Baltic states and Ukrainians to join NATO and become aligned with the West is a reaction to hundreds of years of unprovoked Russian aggression and treachery. Being a Russian satellite is not fun for non-Russians and NATO offers them an escape from that.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The problem I have with that is that Russia has a long history of subjugating and colonizing their neighbours long before NATO ever existed. The desire for the Baltic states and Ukrainians to join NATO and become aligned with the West is a reaction to hundreds of years of unprovoked Russian aggression and treachery. Being a Russian satellite is not fun for non-Russians and NATO offers them an escape from that.

I agree, the motivations are clear on why central european countries would want NATO protection.

The problem is, reunification of Germany and the collapse of the Soviet State were predicated upon a negotiated agreement with the US, which the US/Nato promptly violated.

It takes two to tango here and the Russians were counting on the world not kicking them while they were down. There was some contrition there and some good will that has since been wiped away.

The parallels between Putin and Hitler are pretty absurd but the parallels between the first world war /second world and the first cold war and the second are pretty easy to see.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The problem I have with that is that Russia has a long history of subjugating and colonizing their neighbours long before NATO ever existed. The desire for the Baltic states and Ukrainians to join NATO and become aligned with the West is a reaction to hundreds of years of unprovoked Russian aggression and treachery. Being a Russian satellite is not fun for non-Russians and NATO offers them an escape from that.

On top of the aggression and treachery, there were also large heaping scoops of ethnic cleansing. Don't forget about the ethnic cleansing!

[karl262]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

You do understand that more NATO countries along the border of Russia is an absolute disaster waiting to happen? Like the OP said, he's got 8000 nukes at his disposal. Maybe some less antagonistic policies would be the right decision here. I don't want to go to war with Russia.

I certainly don't want to go to war with Russia because America subverted a democratically elected government that happened to not align with their way of thinking, and deliberately antagonized Russia in the process.

If Putin attempted to destablise mexico and then endorsed whatever puppet regime ascended to power next, America would be reacting the exact same way.

Russia is a nuclear superpower. That has certain privileges. Everyone needs to back away and call it a win. We're all still here.

Do you mean Obama would arm the ethnic Americans living in Mexico and push them to have a referendum to join the US?