[Signing] Flames Sign Devin Setoguchi to one year 750k deal.

[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by Split98

How will this impact Baertschi?

Sven is LW


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[cowtown75]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I still think D. Jones will not be in the lineup

I hope you are right.


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[cowtown75]

I think Seto needed a change anyways as the Peg clearly wasn't a great fit for him for whatever reason. Love this pick-up as it's a great rate contract, he is still young and has talent. And for 750K, for a younger former 30 goal guy in these days, it's a bargain. Good job Treliving.


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[MarkGio]

The Flames are embarking on a Sutter-like rebuild, allowing for no competition in training camp. There's 13 forwards penciled in:

Hudler - Stajan - Jones
Glencross - Backlund - Colborne
Raymond - Monahan - Setoguchi
Bollig - Bouma - Byron
McGrattan

No room Baertschi, Gaudreau, Bennett, Poirer, Klimchuck or Granlund. Why? Because Trevy and Burke thought wash-ups like Setoguchi have shown experience in the NHL and therefore must be better hockey players. They're going to develop career AHLers with their prospects of they don't allow. them to adapt to the NHL.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

The Flames are embarking on a Sutter-like rebuild, allowing for no competition in training camp. There's 13 forwards penciled in:

Hudler - Stajan - Jones
Glencross - Backlund - Colborne
Raymond - Monahan - Setoguchi
Bollig - Bouma - Byron
McGrattan

No room Baertschi, Gaudreau, Bennett, Poirer, Klimchuck or Granlund. Why? Because Trevy and Burke thought wash-ups like Setoguchi have shown experience in the NHL and therefore must be better hockey players. They're going to develop career AHLers with their prospects of they don't allow. them to adapt to the NHL.

No. The Sutter rebuild had no rookies because there were none to be there. Holes were plugged with veterans because there was no youth. Setoguchi is an insurance policy to ensure we don't set kids up to fail by having no choice but to put them in a place they might not be ready for. There is no analogy here.

Who should Sutter given more ice time to? Answer: there wasn't anyone to give that ice time to.

[bluck]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

The Flames are embarking on a Sutter-like rebuild, allowing for no competition in training camp. There's 13 forwards penciled in:

Hudler - Stajan - Jones
Glencross - Backlund - Colborne
Raymond - Monahan - Setoguchi
Bollig - Bouma - Byron
McGrattan

No room Baertschi, Gaudreau, Bennett, Poirer, Klimchuck or Granlund. Why? Because Trevy and Burke thought wash-ups like Setoguchi have shown experience in the NHL and therefore must be better hockey players. They're going to develop career AHLers with their prospects of they don't allow. them to adapt to the NHL.

Injuries happen... Roster spots will for sure be up for the taking, I would rather shelter our youth unlike the Oilers and let them earn a spot on the team. Kind of how Nyquist did with Detroit.

[OzSome]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

The Flames are embarking on a Sutter-like rebuild, allowing for no competition in training camp. There's 13 forwards penciled in:

Hudler - Stajan - Jones
Glencross - Backlund - Colborne
Raymond - Monahan - Setoguchi
Bollig - Bouma - Byron
McGrattan

No room Baertschi, Gaudreau, Bennett, Poirer, Klimchuck or Granlund. Why? Because Trevy and Burke thought wash-ups like Setoguchi have shown experience in the NHL and therefore must be better hockey players. They're going to develop career AHLers with their prospects of they don't allow. them to adapt to the NHL.

The vets still need to earn a spot. We had some vet in the past that lost their spot and ended up playing in the minors because they couldn't give Hartley a reason to keep them. Also, I wouldn't call an under 30 years old a wash-up yet. He had a bad seasons with Minnesota and Winnipeg so he might be due for a rebound. If not, he's only signed for a season and cheap so they can send him to Adirondack no problem. If he goes back to the way he was playing for San Jose Sharks then the gamble pays of.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

The Flames are embarking on a Sutter-like rebuild, allowing for no competition in training camp. There's 13 forwards penciled in:

The bolded contradicts your first sentence there. The whole point of the term "pencilled in" is that pencil can be erased (unlike something "set in stone"). The way the roster looks now can be altered if a rookie outplays someone there.

Also, there is room for 14 forwards on a roster. The limit is 23, which generally shakes out as 14F, 7D, 2G. The Flames have sometimes gone with 13/8/2, but the point is that there is an open spot already if they need it. The 13th and 14th forwards can be rotated into the lineup as regularly as the GM likes.

In addition, none of this takes the inevitable injuries into account, which will create more roster holes that will need filling and make us glad we have as many legit NHLers as we do.

This signing makes the team better now without harming the rebuild at all. We signed a decent 27 year old player to a cheap one year contract. The only things that should be up for debate here should be to what degree the team is improved and what line combos we want to see. He's only 27. If he fits, he could be part of the solution.

[Freeway]

There are 12 forwards on one-way contracts, and then Monahan, who all-but is. Monahan can go down without needing waivers. Everyone else needs waivers. McGrattan, Setoguchi and Byron make less than $925k each, so they can be buried in the AHL without counting against the cap.

[djsFlames]

Hudler - Stajan - Jones

Godly first line.

On a serious note, I guarantee you there will be some sort of injury/ailment to a player right out of the gate. There always is, for whatever reason. There'll be room for a kid.

[gunnner]

I watched him for 3 years with the blades, and watched a dozen Jets games last year. Unless there is a miracle, he will not be a in Hartleys good books. He does not play hard. I expect a lot of pressbox time for Setoguchi. To say he will be an asset we can trade at the deadline is wishful thinking.

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by browntrout

on the off chance this team gets McDavid next year....this team is going to find it hard to get to the cap floor with so many very good prospects that deserve a chance in the NHL..at this point next year they are going to need to sign has been vets at inflated prices....see florida a few years ago

Really? Name the "very good prospects that deserve a chance in the NHL" for me. At this point it's probably going to be a very short list, with a lot of very questionable players on it. Guys who have a 50/50 chance at best to be impact players in the NHL.

The Setoguchi signing has little to no impact on the prospects.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

The Flames are embarking on a Sutter-like rebuild, allowing for no competition in training camp. There's 13 forwards penciled in:

Hudler - Stajan - Jones
Glencross - Backlund - Colborne
Raymond - Monahan - Setoguchi
Bollig - Bouma - Byron
McGrattan

The only people pencilling forwards into roster spots are fans who seem convinced that management and coaches have no idea what they are doing.

Originally Posted by MarkGio

No room Baertschi, Gaudreau, Bennett, Poirer, Klimchuck or Granlund. Why? Because Trevy and Burke thought wash-ups like Setoguchi have shown experience in the NHL and therefore must be better hockey players. They're going to develop career AHLers with their prospects of they don't allow. them to adapt to the NHL.

Has this ever happened before? I'm honestly curious, and this also goes back to an earlier comment by Vulcan conveying concerns that a prospect might "outgrow" the AHL. Are there any players in NHL history whose careers have clearly suffered and stagnated as a result of spending too much time playing in the A?

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

The Flames are embarking on a Sutter-like rebuild, allowing for no competition in training camp. There's 13 forwards penciled in:

Hudler - Stajan - Jones
Glencross - Backlund - Colborne
Raymond - Monahan - Setoguchi
Bollig - Bouma - Byron
McGrattan

No room Baertschi, Gaudreau, Bennett, Poirer, Klimchuck or Granlund. Why? Because Trevy and Burke thought wash-ups like Setoguchi have shown experience in the NHL and therefore must be better hockey players. They're going to develop career AHLers with their prospects of they don't allow. them to adapt to the NHL.

Doubt it, if Baertschi playes a better game than Raymond or Glencross I'm sure he'll get a chance. You think management is telling the GM to lose? No, the best player gets the icetime. Baertschi needs to learn to win puck battles and be more of an all around player because he's no offensive superstar. I'm sure they put them against each other in practice at which point it will be incredibly easy to see which player deserves the ice time.

If Poirier or Smith earn their spot Setogouchi will be riding pine. If Poirier can't beat Setogouchi for a spot then he doesn't deserve one because it shouldn't be that hard. The opportunity is right there for the taking, if any of our prospects want to play they just need to put in the hours and the discipline. It's not like Treliving is holding Baertschi back from learning to be harder to knock off the puck.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Has this ever happened before? I'm honestly curious, and this also goes back to an earlier comment by Vulcan conveying concerns that a prospect might "outgrow" the AHL. Are there any players in NHL history whose careers have clearly suffered and stagnated as a result of spending too much time playing in the A?

Without a time machine to go back and watch the alternate reality play out, there's no way to say for sure whether this has (or hasn't) happened before. What we can say with 100% certainty is that relationships between players and teams have been ruined when teams have been unwilling or unable to find room on their NHL rosters for those prospects. From a Flames fan's perspective, watching a player go elsewhere to become an impact player would be just as bad as watching their career "suffer and stagnate."

With Sven being subject to waivers in a year, he pretty much needs to be given a chance to show that he deserves to stick with the Flames by the end of this season, or we'll be in the same situation that the Leafs were in with Colborne last year.

[Point Blank]

Prospects will make the team this year if they are good enough. If they can't then they can develop in the farm. It's that simple.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The only people pencilling forwards into roster spots are fans who seem convinced that management and coaches have no idea what they are doing.


Has this ever happened before? I'm honestly curious, and this also goes back to an earlier comment by Vulcan conveying concerns that a prospect might "outgrow" the AHL. Are there any players in NHL history whose careers have clearly suffered and stagnated as a result of spending too much time playing in the A?

No. By the time a player has any chance of outgrowning the AHL they're waiver eligible and another team will notice and pick them up. Detroit, arguably the best when it comes to developing players, has no problem keeping players in the AHL that have probably shown NHL glimpses. Players like Kindl, Smith and Tatar. Then there was Nyquist who in the 2012-2013 was over a point-per-game player in the AHL (for the second season in a row) and eventually called up and played every playoff game for the Red Wings that year. If anyone has ever graduated from the AHL it was Nyquist, yet the Red Wings still started him in the AHL for the 2013-2014 season. He put up 21 points in 15 games with the Rapids before joining the Red Wings full-time and putting up 48 points in 57 games as a 24 year old. Detroit fans have seen it time and time again of players having to earn their spot, show that they are well beyond the AHL or the European leagues, and even then they have no issue scratching you until you're proven to be a full-time NHLer. It's worked for them. This season at least two of Mantha, Jurco or Pulkkinen will start in the AHL and no Detroit fan is jumping over the bridge because of that possibility.

There are players like Zach Boychuk who are borderline NHL players who put up great points in the AHL but can't translate their game consistently to the NHL. However, Boychuk has been given every opportunity to play in the NHL including three different teams and nearly 100 NHL games. And at 24 I'd hardly say his NHL career is completely over.

It is an absurd concept to me that people feel that the Flames have players who have outgrown the AHL. Gaudreau obviously did outgrow College, but until he puts those points up in the AHL I don't think he's come close to showing he will have his development ruined by starting in the AHL. Baertschi certainly hasn't shown to have outgrown the AHL. Bennett is the only one I can see having a reasonable argument about outgrowing his league, and that's only because he can't play in the AHL. I don't think playing in the CHL one more year will ruin him though, give him time to bulk up.

[Oling_Roachinen]

This is the Detroit Red Wing's philosophy in a nutshell:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=683301

"In every organization, it's the same thing," coach Mike Babcock said. "You have a number of kids you bring into every [preseason] and everybody talks about how good they are … but they've got to take someone's job. We're in a process right now. We have only eight exhibition games and I'm just watching to see what happens."

It's worked out decently enough for them.

Then there's the Oiler's philosophy of making room for every kid who has shown any signs of being half-decent at hockey given a spot on the team.

I know which philosophy I think is better.

[FAN]

I do not like this signing. We finally went back to being a hardworking team last season and then we go out and sign Setoguchi? Makes no sense.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Without a time machine to go back and watch the alternate reality play out, there's no way to say for sure whether this has (or hasn't) happened before. What we can say with 100% certainty is that relationships between players and teams have been ruined when teams have been unwilling or unable to find room on their NHL rosters for those prospects...

Okay. How often does this happen? Can you provide some specific examples where such relationships have been ruined and have also detrimentally affected a team? What actually took place in such instances before the relationship was severed? Have any players' ability or potential to play in the NHL been clearly negatively affected by an unwillingness on the part of their parent club to add them to the NHL roster?

I ask these questions because I continue to see posters address concerns about the fragility of prospect development as far as it is connected to the important transition to the NHL. It's as if some believe that there is a limited transition window: that a player can be moved from one league to the other either too soon or too late, and I'm not convinced this is entirely true. I am interested to see if this is a real concern, or if this is more fan perception fuelled by anxiety and impatience.

Originally Posted by gargamel

With Sven being subject to waivers in a year, he pretty much needs to be given a chance to show that he deserves to stick with the Flames by the end of this season, or we'll be in the same situation that the Leafs were in with Colborne last year.

Yes and no. He will likely still be given the opportunity to make the team out of TC next year as well, and if there is any threat that he will need to be waived, the Flames will then need to trade him or lose him. However, once a player finds himself in that position, how often does he then become a player that was sorely missed by the team that cut him loose in the long run? It seems to me that the vast majority of players who end up waiver eligible without solidifying their position as NHL players never actually become much more than low impact NHLers.

At some point, Baertschi is responsible to ensure that he becomes a NHL player, and there is no way the team will hold him back from making the team if he really is good enough to play there. I would say that the best thing the Flames can do at this point is just continue to do what they are doing, and for Baertschi to work like hell to do whatever it is that will earn him a spot. If he ends up playing in the AHL all season, I highly doubt that this will make him any worse for it, and by the same token the Flames are likely not doing themselves any favours by crossing their fingers, holding their breath and hoping that he will figure it out on their NHL roster if he is not ready to be there.