I'm not a religious person myself, but I'd fight like hell for the right to freedom of religion.
Can't believe the #### being said in this thread.
Freedom of religion is fine, as long as it is understood that your religion governs no one but yourself and is not an excuse for acting for/against anyone else, circumventing or trying to change the laws of whichever nation you reside in.
Religious practices and beliefs should not be guiding the freedoms, laws, or rights of any nation, even if the vast majority of people living there fall under that sect. And yes, this applies to the US (and to a lesser extent, Canada) as well.
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Freedom of religion is fine, as long as it is understood that your religion governs no one but yourself and is not an excuse for acting for/against anyone else, circumventing or trying to change the laws of whichever nation you reside in.
Religious practices and beliefs should not be guiding the freedoms, laws, or rights of any nation, even if the vast majority of people living there fall under that sect. And yes, this applies to the US (and to a lesser extent, Canada) as well.
And large swaths of the world don't understand this thus my issue with religion. It's ironic that the one thing that most religons seem to ignore is "Freedom of Religion"...
I'm am so, so, so, so, so happy I live in the Western world.
Religion is nothing but a means to misrepresent spirituality and coerce and brainwash people into doing your bidding. Its more a political tool than anything.
As for these ISIS guys, they need to be dealt with. But what else did the US led "coaltion of the willing" expect when they destabilized the country. It was left wide open for lunatics like this to run rampant.
Is there even any US forces in the country still, or have they all left now?
Nevermind: looks like withdrawal was completed in 2011.
Well, they got Saddam.
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Last edited by Igottago; 07-29-2014 at 03:44 PM.
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Agreed, and the idea of pushing ones religion on another is flat out wrong. People can make choices for themselves. ISIS, dictating that you will convert or die, is abhorrent. Without a doubt they must be stopped. I agree that religion should not dictate policy, however reading things like "it must be abolished" or "if there was/is a god he'd be all for destruction of religion" is absurd.
I agree that if there is a God, I can not even begin to pretend what he/she may be, and no amount of doctrine can convince me otherwise. However if people want to go to church on sundays and believe whatever doctrine they want, they should 100% be allowed to do that.
As it relates to ISIS, Stuck Mojo sums up my thoughts on this BS rather swimmingly.
Bring this type of convert or die mentality over here, and them SOB's will find out pretty quick where the bear ####s in the woods.
Nevermind: looks like withdrawal was completed in 2011.
Well, they got Saddam.
Meh, people including me were frothing at the mouth in the 90's when the guy was gassing the Kurds and sheites. Looks like we got what we wanted and it wasn't the best thing for many people here and there.
I take a much more pragmatic view these days around places like Syria, Lybia, Egypt, Zimbabwe, etc. I no longer think in every case its best to rush in and kill the dirt bags. The alternative maybe worse, and usually is as these Islamic fanatics love a destabilized country more than anything.
As much as I hate to say it, we may need to put up with these guys and stomach the minor atrocities vs. bigger ones and a less safe home country.
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Agreed, and the idea of pushing ones religion on another is flat out wrong. People can make choices for themselves. ISIS, dictating that you will convert or die, is abhorrent. Without a doubt they must be stopped. I agree that religion should not dictate policy, however reading things like "it must be abolished" or "if there was/is a god he'd be all for destruction of religion" is absurd.
I agree that if there is a God, I can not even begin to pretend what he/she may be, and no amount of doctrine can convince me otherwise. However if people want to go to church on sundays and believe whatever doctrine they want, they should 100% be allowed to do that.
As it relates to ISIS, Stuck Mojo sums up my thoughts on this BS rather swimmingly.
Bring this type of convert or die mentality over here, and them SOB's will find out pretty quick where the bear ####s in the woods.
Bring this type of CONVERT or die mentality over here, and them SOB's will find out pretty quick where the bear ####s in the woods.
Sorry but can't help but think of jesuit priests and missionaries with this comment....You could argue the new world was colonized with that convert or die mentality.
Yes it was. Its an interesting question. But iirc, and my knowledge of that history is kind of poor, but the Jesuits were dedicated to bringing schools and education to the masses. I don't recall reading that the Jesuits used violent conversion either, but I could be wrong.
ISIS is dedicated to bringing death and destruction to their enemies.
It will be interesting to see what happens if they start skirting around the borders of a nation with a real army instead of failed states. If they start getting a little too close to Turkey for instance, or Iran. Granted Turkey isn't exactly the pinnacle of stability currently, but at least their protests aren't Islamist driven.
I would place a bet on "pretty severe ass kicking".
It will be interesting to see what happens if they start skirting around the borders of a nation with a real army instead of failed states. If they start getting a little too close to Turkey for instance, or Iran. Granted Turkey isn't exactly the pinnacle of stability currently, but at least their protests aren't Islamist driven.
I would place a bet on "pretty severe ass kicking".
The problem with Iraq's army is that while it was fairly lavishly equip by the Americans, it is pretty poorly trained and worse yet, it has a moral situation. So it was fairly easy to break down. Especially when your fighting a force that basically doesn't take prisoners and executes its prisoners in a particularly ugly fashion.
I would argue that if they tangled with Iran's army, they would probably have the same results as when they tangled with Iraq's army, unless they're dealing with Iran's Republican Guard units.
Turkey has a pretty professional military, they are well trained to NATO standards, they'd probably have some success against ISIS. However when your fighting a irregular military like that it becomes a bloody game of inches.
I don't think Iran's army is that stellar either, I just think they're ok but have +10 religion bonus. ISIS has run over a large swath of Sunni territory, but Iran is all Shia.
I don't think Iran's army is that stellar either, I just think they're ok but have +10 religion bonus. ISIS has run over a large swath of Sunni territory, but Iran is all Shia.
Iran's regular army isn't all that great. If you go back and study the Iran Iraq conflict, they were brave enough, but poorly lead and tactically their officers weren't that great.
They haven't had a true conflict since then, unless you count them bashing in protestors heads.
Their republican guard is a different story, they get the best equipment, uniforms and training including guest training with rumors of North Korea and Russian training cadres.
But at the end of the day the Iranian army is still built around the concept of martyrdom in your duty, which means that they basically fight like a zerg rush or like the romanticized cavalry charges of the 1500's.
The Iranian army during its conflict with Iraq was all about sending as many people on a rush as possible in the hope that you could overwhelm your enemy. That's why casualties were so high on the Iranian side.
I've said it for a while. For some reason Arab nations don't seem to be really good in terms of conventional military concepts.
Turkey has always had a huge army for its country, I'd love to know more about the situation there - I have confidence they'd annihialate ISIS militarily but in the long run it could destabalise Turkey/Europe.
From what i gather the Turkish State is getting more islamic/less secular for the first time in its history...
The problem with Iraq's army is that while it was fairly lavishly equip by the Americans, it is pretty poorly trained and worse yet, it has a moral situation. So it was fairly easy to break down. Especially when your fighting a force that basically doesn't take prisoners and executes its prisoners in a particularly ugly fashion.
I would argue that if they tangled with Iran's army, they would probably have the same results as when they tangled with Iraq's army, unless they're dealing with Iran's Republican Guard units.
Turkey has a pretty professional military, they are well trained to NATO standards, they'd probably have some success against ISIS. However when your fighting a irregular military like that it becomes a bloody game of inches.
Yeah, it became evident in both Gulf Wars that the Iraqi army didn't have their hearts in it. Most were in it just for a pay cheque, went home when the Americans invaded, and were quick to pledge themselves to the army of occupied Iraq the minute Saddam fell. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the same soldiers were now in ISIS just to survive.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
The countries in the region will need to do something about ISIS and fast. These guys are efficient and ruthless. They take no prisoners and the prisoners they come across they promptly execute. If unchecked, they will expand even further than they are now.
They just released their expansion plan on Twitter
These guys want to create an Islamic Caliphate that spans from African to south east Asia. Mind these guys are a bit nuts to think they'll be able to do this given the military resources outside of the destabilized Syrian and Iraqi areas, but it does highlight they have huge territorial ambitions that will be a problem if they are not checked sooner rather than later. If something isn't done about Syria or Iraq current weakness, there are very broad implications on the entire Middle East, people within and a lot of other global problems.
This is what they are seeking to create in the short term is a state carved out of both Syria and Iraq, and they've made huge strides in doing so already.
Past ISIS expansion plan map
Current range of ISIS and oil fields contested
EDIT: Didn't realize morale and training in the Iraqi armed forces were so bad.
It's no wonder they are getting their a*ses handed to them.
Quote:
Iraqi officials told the Guardian that two divisions of Iraqi soldiers - roughly 30,000 men - simply turned and ran in the face of the assault by an insurgent force of just 800 fighters.
They released that caliphate plan a while back, and it's pretty comical. They have, on the high end of estimates, 20000 members. Who knows how many active fighters. They're going to take back Spain ... chunks of Russia ... chunks of China ... Iran ... all of the Balkans, Turkey, Hungary?
Hilarious ... and it must be hilarious to even the believers if the leaders think they actually could do a 1/5th of that.
They released that caliphate plan a while back, and it's pretty comical. They have, on the high end of estimates, 20000 members. Who knows how many active fighters. They're going to take back Spain ... chunks of Russia ... chunks of China ... Iran ... all of the Balkans, Turkey, Hungary?
Hilarious ... and it must be hilarious to even the believers if the leaders think they actually could do a 1/5th of that.
I think they are counting on a snowballing membership once they gain more civilian resources they can terrorize and "recruit" from. Even then, its crazy they can even remotely dream this up. Their current success is entirely based on how cowardly the Iraqi forces are compared to them and how weak the Syrian central government is.
