Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by nik-

Surely you can't deny that those groups, if not being directly supported, are most definitely emboldened by implications of Russian support at the absolute minimum?

Those idiots wouldn't even be out there fighting if they weren't getting support from your cartoon president.

Russia definitely "supports" the separatists, but the degree of support has yet to be determined.

Another point is that there were several incidents when passenger jets were shot down by regular army of USA (1988) and Ukraine (2001). Were those countries sanctioned, invaded or punished in any other way? No. Because it was an accident. This was, most likely, an accident too. Now what if thie Boeing was shot down by regular army of Russia and Russia would admit it as accident? Russia should be treated the same way as USA and Ukraine in those past incidents. Whatever was the degree of Russia's involvment in this crash, it is definitely less than USA involvment in 1988 crash and Ukraine involvement in 2001 crash, as those were caused by the respective regular armies. So why Russia should be punished harsher then those two countries in those accidents?

[KelVarnsen]

Just to be clear. We are talking about events 116 years apart?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

Just to be clear. We are talking about events 116 years apart?

I am mostly relaying what russian's media is saying. My purpose is not to convince anyone here. I'm mostly providing the outlook from the russian's point of view. And yes, we are talking about the events of 1898 and USS Maine sinking. If you want something more recent, we could talk about "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq though.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I am mostly relaying what russian's media is saying. My purpose is not to convince anyone here. I'm mostly providing the outlook from the russian's point of view. And yes, we are talking about the events of 1898 and USS Maine sinking. If you want something more recent, we could talk about "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq though.

Yeah, I guess we could, but then we'd need a file to remove all the straw from under our nails.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Pointman

This is exactly what russians are getting at. US media blamed Spain for the incident, even though Spain most likely they had nothing to do with it — a conclusion, that seems to be confirmed by later investigations of US experts. Nonetheless, following the mass propaganda, US started the spanish-american war. Russians are not quite saying that US are building up for the war, but they are sorta hinting at it and making it clear that US has a history of lying about such things (which is true about any country in the world, including both USA and Russia).

Sorta hinting at what? That this is possibly a hoax by the Americans to start a war with Russia?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Sorta hinting at what? That this is possibly a hoax by the Americans to start a war with Russia?

Hinting that Americans are hoaxing the world into believing that it is Russia's fault so they could justify their further "actions". They don't flat out say "war" or "invasion" or something, they just run the Maine story and saying something along the lines that Americans have a history of doing "this" and they are following this agenda again. Then it is up to reader/viewer's imagination.

[Acey]

We already knew this, but Eurocontrol tweets that most airlines were still using the airspace and the decision to close airspace is made by the state concerned. As we do here in North America, you get rerouted if you file a restricted airway or through restricted airspace.

This could have been any plane as pretty much everybody was still going through there, just unlucky for MH that they've lost another 777 in just a few months.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Hinting that Americans are hoaxing the world into believing that it is Russia's fault so they could justify their further "actions". They don't flat out say "war" or "invasion" or something, they just run the Maine story and saying something along the lines that Americans have a history of doing "this" and they are following this agenda again. Then it is up to reader/viewer's imagination.

Does anyone really believe that the United States wants war with Russia?

Does anyone really believe that Kim Jong Un is the greatest golfer in world history?

Honestly, the two aren't that far apart. Hopefully most Russian citizens can see through that.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Does anyone really believe that the United States wants war with Russia?

Does anyone really believe that Kim Jong Un is the greatest golfer in world history?

Honestly, the two aren't that far apart. Hopefully most Russian citizens can see through that.

John McCain does, but that's only because he wants to invade everywhere all the time because he's crazy.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Does anyone really believe that the United States wants war with Russia?

Few people could believe that Ukraine will turn into the civil war stage and Russia will invade Crimea, so what's going on now is already unbelievable. There's fear that USA/NATO will try a blitz war to get Crimea back to Ukraine and it's not out of the realms of possibility in my opinion. If Russia can landgrab Crimea without a significant penalties, so can the USA.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by Pointman

To be fair, even if it was shot down by the separatists, the degree of Russia's involvement has yet to be determined, and it might very well be 0. They could steal or bribe BUK from ukrainians and separatists do have war veterans who may know how to use it without Russia's help.

I respect you but if you honestly believe that Russia had no involvment with this then you're in need of some help.

Russia invaded Chrimea and tried to say they didn't, they're funding these "rebels" which I would be more willing to belive that many of them are Russians fighting here. Heck the rebel leader is a russian citizen

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Russia definitely "supports" the separatists, but the degree of support has yet to be determined.

Another point is that there were several incidents when passenger jets were shot down by regular army of USA (1988) and Ukraine (2001). Were those countries sanctioned, invaded or punished in any other way? No. Because it was an accident. This was, most likely, an accident too. Now what if thie Boeing was shot down by regular army of Russia and Russia would admit it as accident? Russia should be treated the same way as USA and Ukraine in those past incidents. Whatever was the degree of Russia's involvment in this crash, it is definitely less than USA involvment in 1988 crash and Ukraine involvement in 2001 crash, as those were caused by the respective regular armies. So why Russia should be punished harsher then those two countries in those accidents?

A quick acknowledgement by someone that they made a tragic error would help. Continued denials by all sides only heighten suspicion and tension.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I am mostly relaying what russian's media is saying. My purpose is not to convince anyone here. I'm mostly providing the outlook from the russian's point of view. And yes, we are talking about the events of 1898 and USS Maine sinking. If you want something more recent, we could talk about "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq though.

Simply put, Iraq used chemical weapons on their own people in the early 90's which in fact are considered Weapons of Mass Destruction....

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by PIMking

I respect you but if you honestly believe that Russia had no involvment with this then you're in need of some help.

Russia invaded Chrimea and tried to say they didn't, they're funding these "rebels" which I would be more willing to belive that many of them are Russians fighting here. Heck the rebel leader is a russian citizen

You know how BigTuna is blind to even the slightest bad thing the Toronto Maple Leafs do? Pointman is the same with respect to Russia - except about 10 times worse.

You can be damn sure he believes the propaganda and lies Russia's media feeds him.

[FlamesAddiction]

I was reading on another site that one of the separatist leaders is claimed that the bodies in the wreckage were already decomposed and weren't freshly killed people.

These guys are flat out crazy.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1459910/pl...bel-commander/

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You know how BigTuna is blind to even the slightest bad thing the Toronto Maple Leafs do? Pointman is the same with respect to Russia - except about 10 times worse.

You can be damn sure he believes the propaganda and lies Russia's media feeds him.

I appreciate Pointman's views. We may not agree and they may not fit with the news we're hearing but I'm sure the news there is quite different. Not saying he/they are right or wrong but I appreciate hearing a different viewpoint.

[Resolute 14]

Oh, don't get me wrong. It's good to hear that side of the story. I like hearing the lies and propaganda. It's the gullibility that is problematic.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Few people could believe that Ukraine will turn into the civil war stage and Russia will invade Crimea, so what's going on now is already unbelievable. There's fear that USA/NATO will try a blitz war to get Crimea back to Ukraine and it's not out of the realms of possibility in my opinion. If Russia can landgrab Crimea without a significant penalties, so can the USA.

I don't think anyone on his side of the world is surprised at all by Russia invading and annexing Crimea. It was pretty predictable when the conflict first began.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You know how BigTuna is blind to even the slightest bad thing the Toronto Maple Leafs do? Pointman is the same with respect to Russia - except about 10 times worse.

You can be damn sure he believes the propaganda and lies Russia's media feeds him.

What a pompous, insulting, incendiary thing to say.

Jesus, you're a real #######.

[Bigtime]

I really appreciate the information Pointman is bringing to us, I think he is doing a great job of giving us a look at how things are on the ground in Russia. We are incredibly lucky to be getting a look at it.