Flames to announce plans to announce arena plans in the... future...

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by seattleflamer

A cautionary tale for Flames fans is what happened to the NBA in Seattle. The Sonics were well supported and deeply cared for, had plenty of wealth in the area and corporate support, also had a past championship and a winning tradition. There was a sense of entitlement and disbelief of the threats to leave among the fanbase and elected officials.

But, leave they did under a contrived league and (carpetbagger) owner mandated demand for a new building which the State and City refused to fund.

One advantage for Calgary is the local ownership may be more inclined to think of the team in terms of stewardship of a heritage brand than as a purely economic enterprise.

Still, in the end, if ownership can't make it economically feasible with an aging arena and have a choice between another jurisdiction's subsidized modern arena versus paying one wholly by themselves, I think you know which one they'll pick.

Helluva risk for the owners to take. They may be able to pick up and move the Flames.

Their businesses? Not so much. They are heavily rooted here.

[SHOGUN]

Would be awesome if the arena included a movie theatre and shopping centre, with new restaurants. I'm still hopefully the announcement will be sooner rather than later.

[Mr.Coffee]

Calgary is one of the best NHL markets now that our city has critical mass and is continuing to grow. That can change too however.

But little old Mr.Coffee, sitting in my basement that flooded two years ago trying to figure out my retirement plan and fund my kids ####? Yeah pretty sure I don't feel like paying for a nicer building for Matt Stajan, or anyone actually. These players and owners are rich enough, thank you. We're talking about pro hockey here, something to do on the odd winter night. There is a limit to how much the public should be expected to pony up for their salaries and buildings.

To be perfectly honest if they don't want to front the bill, somebody else will and guess what? Will still make millions. But leave my tax money the fata out of that and let me decide to keep those ridiculous salaries high with my discretionary income- not forced dollars removed from my taxes. I don't care if they feel the need for a new rink, I think the Saddledome is just fine. If it means some free agent won't come here then fine, probably not the type of "character" you want anyway.

The owners bought the team understanding these risks and here is the poker game. You're a billionaire... time to pony up and if you don't want to, sell the team or move it. A new one will come along to make the available money clearly in the market.

[Mr.Coffee]

Should add that if all the greaseball politicians and billionaire owners decide that Joe taxpayer should foot the bill, that the public should automatically get a say in how this thing is built.

But to plan a gigantic state of the art super duper entertainment complex with a few buildings and value of over 800mm or so, well, I don't think I want a part of that. A part of something over the top and unnecessary. Where are the cheaper options?

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Helluva risk for the owners to take. They may be able to pick up and move the Flames.

Their businesses? Not so much. They are heavily rooted here.

Including the Hitmen, Roughnecks, and Stampeders. Moving the Flames is a no win proposition for the Calgary Flames Limited Partnership.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by fotze

I think they are taking so long because they don't want to go down the threaten road.

When I rented a car in phoenix, there was an arena tax on the bill. What are the various tax methods cities have for arena funding to"get around" the taxpayer paying by getting visiting taxpayers?

Car rentals
Hotel tax
Gas tax?
Ticket tax
Lottery revenues?

I imagine the reasons cities agree to these is that they just never rescind the tax and can just up it in the future by a small amounts?

Did Edmonton get any provincial/federal money for their arena?

I believe Edmonton did not receive any federal money for their arena, but they did get provincial money. I believe the funds Edmonton is using from the province came from the same funding that Calgary used for other infrastructure projects (I want to say the West LRT, but that may not be correct), so the same money is not available for a new arena in Calgary.


IIRC, the problem with introducing any alternate sources of taxation is that in Canada (or maybe just Alberta), cities do not have the ability to introduce any types of additional taxation beyond property taxes. Any hotel, rental car, or gas taxes would need to be implemented on a provincial level. Alberta already has a 4% "tourism levy" as a hotel tax.

There will almost certainly be a ticket surcharge of some sort on every ticket sold to every event held in the new building(s).

[Mr.Coffee]

ticket surcharges make way more sense than property tax increases... charge the people that use it.

[Flash Walken]

It is truly amazing to me how effective a group of some of the richest men on the planet have been at convincing citizens it's their civic duty to support publicly funding their private enterprise.

[dieHARDflameZ]

Murray Edwards is worth an estimated 2.5 billion dollars minimum, and he wants the public to pay for a new arena? I love the idea of a new facility, but for it to be paid for by the public and then the billionaire owners get all the financial reward is complete BS.

[Azure]

I agree. Pretty sad how people actually think taxpayers should help pay for it.

The ownership group can afford it. They just don't want to open up their own bank accounts when its so much easier to spend other peoples money.

[Table 5]

Bunk said it best.

The Flames wealthiest owner Clay Riddell is worth about $3.2 billion, up 14% over 2013. Just the one year increment of his wealth over last year alone could likely cover the cost of the arena cash ($400M). Think about that for a second. The one year increase in wealth of one of the six owners (the second wealthiest of which is worth $2.5 billion).

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It is truly amazing to me how effective a group of some of the richest men on the planet have been at convincing citizens it's their civic duty to support publicly funding their private enterprise.

It shouldn't be surprising.

The rich and powerful have been convincing the general population about a lot of things that aren't neccesarily in their best interests for as long as we have recorded history.

[Azure]

On the bright side at least the Mayor of Calgary has a brain when it comes to the whole situation.

Too bad the same can't be said for lots of other people involved.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It is truly amazing to me how effective a group of some of the richest men on the planet have been at convincing citizens it's their civic duty to support publicly funding their private enterprise.

Build me an arena or i'll move my team to another US city. That's how they do it Stateside. The citizens of Minnesota are paying for the Twins and Vikings new facilities via a sales tax increase. Thankfully Canadians are a heck of a lot smarter,

[dieHARDflameZ]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Bunk said it best.

Here I am talking about Murray Edwards, forgot about Clay Riddell...

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Bunk said it best.

One of my favourite ever posts on this board.

[Beatle17]

I can understand both sides of the equation about financing the new arena project but if the owners build the arena themselves what is everyone's thoughts on how the property and business taxes should be used?

If I was one of the owners and paid for the land, construction and services connections I would be pretty pissed when they take my millions of tax dollars and build some more useless art projects in the city or a $25M bridge to nowhere. There has to be give and take on the project and I have no faith that His Royal Purpleness and the Princess Druh will do anything but latch onto the money for more useless stuff. Nobody asked our opinion on the blue ring or bridge. Remember this is the council that wants to build a $500M flood channel in case we get another hundred year flood.

[Table 5]

Oh look, it's Rick Bell.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

I can understand both sides of the equation about financing the new arena project but if the owners build the arena themselves what is everyone's thoughts on how the property and business taxes should be used?

If I was one of the owners and paid for the land, construction and services connections I would be pretty pissed when they take my millions of tax dollars and build some more useless art projects in the city or a $25M bridge to nowhere. There has to be give and take on the project and I have no faith that His Royal Purpleness and the Princess Druh will do anything but latch onto the money for more useless stuff. Nobody asked our opinion on the blue ring or bridge. Remember this is the council that wants to build a $500M flood channel in case we get another hundred year flood.

Ask oxford or Brookfield how they feel about that. ####, ask me. I bought my land, paid for it's construction and they take my tax dollars. Why are the flames different?

I'm on record as saying I'm cool with the city giving the land but not paying for the construction so I'm not totally against government funding but I'm not sure what your point is.

[shutout]

I don't think that the taxpayers should be paying for the construction costs of the building. But I do think that there is a city benefit to having these types of facilities and that there needs to be some sort of give from the city. The easiest way is to go with an escalating property tax structure, where the first few years after the facilities are open there is no property taxes paid. This increases over a period of 10, 15, or 20 years to where the facilities are paying full property taxes on the building. The term can be determined by an estimate on the payback recovery period on building the new facility.

I don't agree with the Bell model in Montreal where they build their own building and then get taxed up the wazoo in property taxes. Only to have the province build one for the group in Quebec City.