Bob McKenzie's Draft Ranking - June 23 5:30PM MT - TSN

[RyZ]

I wonder why Seth Jones didnt have these problems last year? Or did he drop to 4 because hes black?

[FlamesAddiction]

I feel really stupid because I thought Ho-Sang actually sounded like a Korean name. I have never seen a close up picture of him and always assumed he was Korean-Canadian.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Read Only

PK Subban fell to the second round for the same reason he didn't see a minute of ice in any game that mattered in the Olympics, he was a reckless, defensively questionable player.

You don't think most of the teams that passed Subban over in the draft regret it now?

[Enoch Root]

Sure, but do any teams regret not drafting Kabanov?

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Sure, but do any teams regret not drafting Kabanov?

The Flames probably regret drafting Nemisz. Doesn't mean they aren't drafting anymore big RH shot Cs.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Sure, but do any teams regret not drafting Kabanov?

Probably not any more that they regret drafting any other 2nd or 3rd rounder that didn't work out.

That is the thing about the risk.

If it works out you get an all-star/Norris winning d-man, if it doesn't it ends up like the majority of the other 2nd and 3rd round picks.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by kehatch

The Flames probably regret drafting Nemisz. Doesn't mean they aren't drafting anymore big RH shot Cs.

I think you missed the context of the conversation

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Probably not any more that they regret drafting any other 2nd or 3rd rounder that didn't work out.

That is the thing about the risk.

If it works out you get an all-star/Norris winning d-man, if it doesn't it ends up like the majority of the other 2nd and 3rd round picks.

But that's precisely why they fall - increased risk

Subban rightfully fell - he worked out

Many (most) don't

[Read Only]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You don't think most of the teams that passed Subban over in the draft regret it now?

Sure they probably do.

Not really sure what the point is.

Teams probably regret they passed on Weber or Benn or James Neal or Datzyuk or any number of guys.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Read Only

Sure they probably do.

Not really sure what the point is.

Teams probably regret they passed on Weber or Benn or James Neal or Datzyuk or any number of guys.

You said he was passed over because he was a reckless, defensively questionable player. Evidently, you think teams were justified in passing over him for those reasons, and would be justified in passing over Ho-Sang for the same reasons. I'm saying even if Ho-Sang still has those defects in his game, and the off-putting manner that irks some hockey people, he could still be a valuable game-breaker in the NHL. The way Subban is.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You said he was passed over because he was a reckless, defensively questionable player. Evidently, you think teams were justified in passing over him for those reasons, and would be justified in passing over Ho-Sang for the same reasons. I'm saying even if Ho-Sang still has those defects in his game, and the off-putting manner that irks some hockey people, he could still be a valuable game-breaker in the NHL. The way Subban is.

Or, he might turn out to be the me-first, uncoachable, room-wrecking head case that scouts are worried about

[AcGold]

Or pull a Tom Erixon. Seriously the risk isn't worth it. If he is on do not draft lists its most likely due to the chance of the guy flying the coop and with the risk being more than 0% its not worth it.

[Point Blank]

I suppose it'll all depend on who's on the board in the 2nd round. I'd still be willing to take a stab if he fell down there.

[fatso]

I don't think Ho-Sang was suggesting the coaching staff was racist or that he was being discriminated against. But I also think it's naive to say the 'Harlem Globetrotters' comment isn't race-based. Given the way it was presented in the article, I think it's fair to interpret it that it is only Ho-Sang getting called a Globetrotter, and not others on the team who may be dangling. Ho-Sang also says that it always comes back to basketball comments with him, even though he has never played basketball. Hmm... why could that be?

Certainly, it's nothing worth worrying over or complaining about, particularly given what he claims is a very positive relationship with the Spitfires brass. I just thought it was interesting that happens to him and it appears to add one more layer to the complexities of understanding him.

[kehatch]

I don't care about the race card. It's his attitude that has people put off. Not the colour of his skin. That said, listening to a number of media outlets over the last couple of days. He was compared to Subban, E Kane, Aliu, and Kadri. Take that how you want it.

[Point Blank]

Originally Posted by fatso

I don't think Ho-Sang was suggesting the coaching staff was racist or that he was being discriminated against. But I also think it's naive to say the 'Harlem Globetrotters' comment isn't race-based. Given the way it was presented in the article, I think it's fair to interpret it that it is only Ho-Sang getting called a Globetrotter, and not others on the team who may be dangling. Ho-Sang also says that it always comes back to basketball comments with him, even though he has never played basketball. Hmm... why could that be?

Certainly, it's nothing worth worrying over or complaining about, particularly given what he claims is a very positive relationship with the Spitfires brass. I just thought it was interesting that happens to him and it appears to add one more layer to the complexities of understanding him.

Again, no one is saying it isn't race based. But even if it is, so what? Is it offensive or harmful in any way? I highly hope that society hasn't become so sensitive to think that it is.

[Point Blank]

Originally Posted by kehatch

I don't care about the race card. It's his attitude that has people put off. Not the colour of his skin. That said, listening to a number of media outlets over the last couple of days. He was compared to Subban, E Kane, Aliu, and Kadri. Take that how you want it.

Lots of Swedish prospects get compared to Swedish players in the past, same goes for Russians and Finns even when there are likely better comparisons that aren't from the same country.

Although I understand comparing Ho-Sang to other black players likely just because of their skin color is sillier than comparing players from the same country, still, if that is offensive then everytime a Swedish prospect gets compared to a Swedish player, it should be slightly offensive as well.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by Point Blank

Again, no one is saying it isn't race based. But even if it is, so what? Is it offensive or harmful in any way? I highly hope that society hasn't become so sensitive to think that it is.

I don't really want to derail the thread, but I'm not sure what to say if you can't see it is reductive to identify and relate to someone first and foremost through their race. I'm not advocating colour-blindness, but do you not think it is somewhat unfair to Ho-Sang to be critiqued in basketball terms when he doesn't and has never played basketball? Is this happening to other prospects where they're communicated to by way of racial stereotypes?

I don't really know what you mean by 'harmful'. Again, I really don't think it's a big deal and not 'harmful' in the broad scale of things, but I do think it is somewhat unfair and inappropriate. Moreover, people should be aspiring to do better in their dealings with each other (in particular with young people), rather than simply saying "meh, I'm not going to question myself on this one, because I don't think it's a big deal".

Originally Posted by Point Blank

Lots of Swedish prospects get compared to Swedish players in the past, same goes for Russians and Finns even when there are likely better comparisons that aren't from the same country.

Although I understand comparing Ho-Sang to other black players likely just because of their skin color is sillier than comparing players from the same country, still, if that is offensive then everytime a Swedish prospect gets compared to a Swedish player, it should be slightly offensive as well.

Swedish isn't a race so your analogy doesn't hold. Canadian system prospects get compared to Canadian players, so it's consistent to compare Swedish system prospects to Swedish players. By your own reasoning, Canadian prospect Ho-Sang is getting the sort end of the stick here when he's compared only to other black players, as opposed to Canadian players generally, no?

[Point Blank]

Originally Posted by fatso

I don't really want to derail the thread, but I'm not sure what to say if you can't see it is reductive to identify and relate to someone first and foremost through their race. I'm not advocating colour-blindness, but do you not think it is somewhat unfair to Ho-Sang to be critiqued in basketball terms when he doesn't and has never played basketball? Is this happening to other prospects where they're communicated to by way of racial stereotypes?

I don't really know what you mean by 'harmful'. Again, I really don't think it's a big deal and not 'harmful' in the broad scale of things, but I do think it is somewhat unfair and inappropriate. Moreover, people should be aspiring to do better in their dealings with each other (in particular with young people), rather than simply saying "meh, I'm not going to question myself on this one, because I don't think it's a big deal".

Sure and in my previous quote I also said that it's silly and not entirely appropriate. But honestly this is a small matter to me (as a colored person myself who has drawn numerous inappropriate associations as well in the past) that's really not worth mentioning to the media. It's not like Ho-Sang has been given less chance to rise in scout rankings compared to other white players just because he's black. For example if I was doing acrobatics for some reason, a huge population of people would probably compare me to Jackie Chan. It's a stupid comparison but it doesn't really change anything.

In the end, I think we can both agree it's not a fair comparison, but I'm not sure why Ho-Sang believes it's worth mentioning to the media. That will depend on what he's trying to imply about his coaches.

Originally Posted by fatso

Swedish isn't a race so your analogy doesn't hold. Canadian system prospects get compared to Canadian players, so it's consistent to compare Swedish system prospects to Swedish players. By your own reasoning, Canadian prospect Ho-Sang is getting the sort end of the stick here when he's compared only to other black players, as opposed to Canadian players generally, no?

I never said Swedish was a race. I also said that it's sillier to be compared based on skin color rather than country, but neither to me are fair. Sure it makes sense if we're talking about a similar system based on countries. But if we're talking about player styles, it doesn't quite make sense to me to only compare by country when there may be more appropriate players to compare with.

EDIT: Forget about the Landeskog part, I was wrong. Perhaps a more appropriate example would be Valeri Nichuskin, whom many compared to Alex Ovechkin and Evgeni Malkin by default. Not that it doesn't make any sense at all, but it's not entirely correct either to limit him to one region because of his country of origin.

[fatso]

I honestly don't understand why you're arguing with me.

The kid mentioned it because it is important to him and it was included in the article because it fits with the tone or purpose of the article. I think we're agreed that the impugned comparison isn't fair but it's not really a big deal. Isn't that the end of it?

If your point, though, is that the kid shouldn't be noticing this kind of 'basketball' comparison or that it doesn't matter at all, then I think you're wrong. Frankly, I'm not sure you get it, because your analogies don't work.

Sure, if you start doing acrobatics you might get compared to the most well-known acrobatic martial artist in the world - Jackie Chan. And I agree it wouldn't matter that you're asian. But an analogy on par with Ho-Sang would be if you were being overly fanciful in your TPS reports and your boss, when criticizing you, said "don't pull any of that fancy Jackie Chan nonsense, just keep it simple." How would that be appropriate? How would that not be reductive of you as a person?