Toyota Truck with Lemon Stickers & Giant Sign

[Table 5]

I'm a big fan of German cars, but since I'm a strictly used-car kind of guy (you can keep your new car smell, I'd rather be the recipient of your massive depreciation), I definitely take reliability into consideration. So I tend to prefer getting the simplest model as possible. Twin turbos with crazy compression? No thanks...I'll stick to your bulletproof NA inline 6. Trick air suspension? No thanks, that sounds stupidly expensive to fix. Top of the line nav package? Nah, AM/FM and my Garmin will do.

Unless you're on warranty, I'd always be weary of getting the German car with a ton of features...especially with a lot of electronics. For some reason or another, the Europeans have never figured out electronics. Engines, handling, safety, build quality...yes. But with electronics...best to play it safe and get the least amount of that you can live with.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by btimbit

German cars are worth it alone just for getting an interior that doesn't feel like it's made from recycled garbage bins.

I think BMW interiors feel embarrassingly bad these days. I've seen higher quality tupperware than some of their plastics. I think VW has them beat in some cars.

[pylon]

Definitely this (tables used car post)^^^

With very few exceptions, the best dollar for dollar balance in car buying is a 3 year old Benz/BMW/Audi. If you get one with a certified warranty, and tack on a few years, you can get yourself into a 3 series C class or A4 for the same price or less than a similarity equipped Camry/Accord.

And I am the same with the ultra luxury gadgets. I like to keep it as simple as possible. Of course I want the main stuff. Air tilt cruise locks etc..... But when you get into the real crazy stuff like chilled seats with massagers, electric window blinds, lane change cameras etc.... You are sometimes just asking for trouble.

[2ArmBands]

I have to admit I chuckle at people that pay the extra money to get a poor mans luxury car. IE the entry level BMWs Lexus etc...

As for the Japanese economy vs American and German economy cars a lot must have changed. I know Ford has come a long way but the last time I was in a Ford Focus ( at least 5 years ago ) it was incredibly bad. Can't speak for VW but have heard they have gone down hill when it comes to entry level vehicles. But so have the Japanese as well.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by 2ArmBands

I have to admit I chuckle at people that pay the extra money to get a poor mans luxury car. IE the entry level BMWs Lexus etc...

You're patronizing someone over them not purchasing a certain level of trim.
Why? I'm curious to hear your reasoning behind this.


An argument was made above that mentioned this also, but I'd sooner buy a 3 yr old base CPO MB C-Class/ BMW 3Series/ AUDI A4, than a brand new Camry/Accord.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I think BMW interiors feel embarrassingly bad these days. I've seen higher quality tupperware than some of their plastics. I think VW has them beat in some cars.

Haven't driven a BMW in a long time, I actually often forget about them since I've never been a fan. VW and Audi Interiors are fantastic though.

[combustiblefuel]

I agree with everything Pylon said with his first post. I had a 2006 Honda accord sold it and got a 1981 300D from the original owner. He only drove it in July & August for 30 years before I bought it. Man, the difference in quality between the two vehicles was outstanding. This old car being 25 years older blew my newer car out of the water. Its not the most powerful machine on the road and It hates me when I take the Hope Hill on the Coquihalla . Most likely due to Its cast iron construction and low HP, but with the quality of its build why would I want to rush anywhere? I honestly don't know If I would want to drive another brand of car again.

[oilyfan]

Couple of comments here about consumer reports, and some misconceptions:

1. CR buys cars off the lot, anonymously. They don't ask manufacturers to send cars to them for testing. This way they get the car that is publically availble.
2. CR data is self reported by members who own the cars, it is probably the single most reliable provider of data on reliability.

Concerning the Japanese vs German manufacturers, the Japanese do produce a much more reliable car but at the expense of driving feel and excitement. They do it by not really putting any thing cutting edge into their best sellers. The Germans on the other hand are focused on performance, sacrificing reliability at that altar. You just have to figure out what is more important to you.

[2ArmBands]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

You're patronizing someone over them not purchasing a certain level of trim.
Why? I'm curious to hear your reasoning behind this.


An argument was made above that mentioned this also, but I'd sooner buy a 3 yr old base CPO MB C-Class/ BMW 3Series/ AUDI A4, than a brand new Camry/Accord.

Because I feel like it's very much a product of the Calgary "keep up with the Jones effect" Personally I don't see the added quality in entry level BMW Mercedes lines, to me it feels like people are just trying to sport a name.

With all that being said I'm far from a car enthusiast so maybe I'm just working off poor information

[oilyfan]

An entry level BMW/Audi/Merc is still a step from a Japanese/American car in terms of driving behaviour. Not every Japanese car of course, the luxury lines are pretty good. It is worth noting that a fully loaded Honda Accord will probably be more expensive than an entry level BMW 3 series

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

1. CR buys cars off the lot, anonymously. They don't ask manufacturers to send cars to them for testing. This way they get the car that is publically availble.
2. CR data is self reported by members who own the cars, it is probably the single most reliable provider of data on reliability.

That's a good point, and one I forgot to make. I think a CR review is probably the closest thing to an accurate, non-partisan review you can get when it comes to reliability and function. They'll give you a dispassionate clinical review of the car, but it's nice to have those to compare to the regurgitated press-releases you get in most car magazines.

Although in terms of the data from their readers, obviously the cars with the highest ownership numbers are more accurate than low-volume cars. For enthusiast models, there are plenty of dedicated online forums that will tell you everything you need to know and look out for.

I think JD Power is one of the biggest BS awards there is.

[bigtmac19]

Originally Posted by Dynamic

I agree to a point with the above post regarding durability vs reliability. But if your durable well built car isn't reliable what is the point? Sure the thing may be fun to drive but if every interior and exterior light go out every month, your radio and climate control may or may not work, and every electrical glitch known to man occurs then that fun factor isn't so fun.

For the average guy you don't want to be spending your Saturdays troubleshooting annoying electrical glitches and paying more for parts. If I had unlimited time and money I might consider a "durable" but unreliable German machine but I don't have time to fart around on stupid things on my car. That's why I drive honda, proven technology that isn't necessarily innovative but just works.

Maybe one day I will drive a German car to see what the fuss is about but that is at least 17 years away when my youngest moves out.

I have a 2006 VW that I bought used. This issue with the bulbs constantly going out, is such a PITA. I think the first year I had the car, I had to replace every single bulb, that stupid bulb warning light was coming on constantly.

[Hack&Lube]

Is it worth worrying about where your car was manufactured? People often say that Toyota's quality started to dip with their foray into building them in American plants instead of Toyota city in Japan. I've heard people recommend buying a Lexus because they are stlil built in Japan.

These days you can buy Japanese cars built in the Americas and even Mercedes has plants in Alabama, India, etc.

[psicodude]

Originally Posted by 2ArmBands

Ultimately when it comes to interiors you get what you pay for. When you mention Civics and Corollas what are you comparing them to? Of course they are somewhat "sub par" Put it up against a Focus or any other economic domestic or VW and it's pretty much the same cut.

10 years ago, sure. I suggest you go sit in a 2014 versions of the Focus and Civic and see if you still feel the same. The Corolla in particular is awful.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by pylon

Look at what happened on VW 1.8T's in the early 2000's. An other words bullet proof engine, was blasted with a Brand wide recall because of an ignition coil problem caused by a supplier. Once the recall was done, the engines were just as reliable as anything out there, but it really hurt VW in reliability ranking for a couple years.

Holy revisionist history pylon

That part was subject to design change several times. In fact, revisions A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,P and Q all failed.

Finally revision R actually worked, and they performed the recall and on several different engines too.

[Hack&Lube]

What I'm finding with 3-5 year old luxury cars right now is that their navigation systems are pretty terrible compared to whatever you have on your phone these days. More manufacturers are going with the sync with phone option and that makes more sense. The older systems need you to buy expensive update DVDs and they have very little intelligence, still relying on street addresses only for the most part and a tiny POI database. While the car might be great, a giant technological gap like that in an older car feels almost like a broken feature. I guess it makes an okay back up if your phone is not working.

[Dynamic]

Originally Posted by bigtmac19

I have a 2006 VW that I bought used. This issue with the bulbs constantly going out, is such a PITA. I think the first year I had the car, I had to replace every single bulb, that stupid bulb warning light was coming on constantly.

My father in law has a 2004 tdi jetta and every time I see him I ask him which light burnt out today. He can't keep a tail light from burning out and his radio illumination lights are completely gone.

Not a bad car to drive but stupid little things like that would infuriate me to no end. I make my living fixing and maintaining industrial equipment and nothing makes me happier than a machine that runs perfectly without the uncheduled breakdowns. I like my cars to do the same.

[burn_this_city]

Everyone likes to rave about buying stripped cars to save x amount of money, but anytime I've done that I've regretted it. It's also pretty difficult to buy bare bones luxury cars in this market, you have to either order it yourself or pick one up that someone ordered. I think CPO cars are ridiculously overpriced compared to a similar private sale.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

What I'm finding with 3-5 year old luxury cars right now is that their navigation systems are pretty terrible compared to whatever you have on your phone these days.

I find the new ones to be behind the times as well. By the time they integrate and test out the tech into their cars, they are probably a solid year or two behind whats in your phone. Spending 3k-5k on an in-dash navigation system is terrible value.

[19Yzerman19]

^The aftermarket double din decks work pretty well, I have an Alpine... if I'd had the factory nav it would be hilariously outdated by now.