Spector - Flames have bigger plans beyond key 2014 draft

[Burke Salad]

The coaching staff should have final say on whom makes this club out of training camp.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Sandman

I agree that he most likely needs some seasoning in the minors, but he IS 218 lbs and pretty strong even though he's only 6 feet tall....

I agree that Arnold could be a hidden gem. 6ft at 210/220lbs is freakin' solid, if he's in top shape. No pressure on the kid since all of it is on Gaudreau. Could be one of the positive surprises this year I think.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Burke Salad

The coaching staff should have final say on whom makes this club out of training camp.

I don't think in most cases the coach is given that power. Hartley didn't have final say when Feaster was in charge. The way I understand it the GM supplies the players and the coach works with what he has been given. After Feaster was fired it looks like Hartley got to make the decisions, and Sven got sent down. Whether Hartley will still have this power with the new GM, it's up in the air and we may never know how they make their decisions.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by heep223

I agree that Arnold could be a hidden gem. 6ft at 210/220lbs is freakin' solid, if he's in top shape. No pressure on the kid since all of it is on Gaudreau. Could be one of the positive surprises this year I think.

There may be a spot open for a 4th line centre. I'd guess Granlund, Knight and Arnold would get a shot at it.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

There may be a spot open for a 4th line centre. I'd guess Granlund, Knight and Arnold would get a shot at it.

I'm hoping that we're going to see some experimentation of moving our young natural centermen to wing. It's not very hard for a C to move to wing, at least not nearly as hard as moving wingers to C. This is not based on anything besides my own opinion and anecdotal experience (though I think I've heard that a few times at the pro levels as well).

[Fire]

Originally Posted by T@T

Monahan was good enough but I have my doubts he would have been here if he was AHL eligible.

As for Gaudreau, if he was good enough to be one of the top players in a tourney full of NHL players over 2 weeks he at least should be givin a real shot at making the lineup.

Quotes like "To build a group of forwards inside the Flames dressing room that is good enough that Johnny Gaudreau can not walk in and immediately crack the lineup." is a slap in the face.

Gaudreau will be given a real shot, not sure why you don't believe that. Personally I think he will make the team out of camp, but the AHL wouldn't hurt him. Misinterpreting qoutes?

I believe Monahan would have been in the AHL for part of last season if that was an option, but I also think it would have been better for his development. He still has a lot to work on. Monahan has an NHL calibre wrist shot already, but every other aspect of his game needs improvement.

You mentioned Treliving is just Burke's puppet. Doesn't the fact he got rid of Troy Ward proves you wrong?

[ForeverFlameFan]

Seeing that we need RWers, I think Knight would be more likely to move on the wing than Arnold would. That's my assumption though.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I don't think in most cases the coach is given that power. Hartley didn't have final say when Feaster was in charge. The way I understand it the GM supplies the players and the coach works with what he has been given. After Feaster was fired it looks like Hartley got to make the decisions, and Sven got sent down. Whether Hartley will still have this power with the new GM, it's up in the air and we may never know how they make their decisions.

When Sven was sent down I believe it was revealed that Feaster was lobbying to keep him up, and Burke is of the opinion that it's up to the coach.

When it comes to prospects, you will likely always have the GM in your ear about what is best for their long term development.

[bubbsy]

this concept of prospects being kept in the bigs vs being sent down seems a bit overblown.

I think it's standard that if you a player comes into camp and replaces a player's spot in the depth chart, they are justified in staying with the club. If however a player doesn't seem to be able to perform well enough to do so, the choice is obvious.

It is critical that management push the message that the AHL path is the standard path to the NHL. Anything less is false hope and leads to entitlement for high picks.

The messaging by Burke, etc, is great, and i'm guessing is being used as motivatoin by Gaudreau, etc, as a challenge to force the coaching staff's decision to be the exception not the rule during camp cuts.

[edslunch]

If Gaudreau doesn't make the team, which is likely, it won't be because he wasn't good enough. It will be because they don't think he is strong enough or durable enough yet.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by T@T

Monahan was good enough but I have my doubts he would have been here if he was AHL eligible.

As for Gaudreau, if he was good enough to be one of the top players in a tourney full of NHL players over 2 weeks he at least should be givin a real shot at making the lineup.

Quotes like "To build a group of forwards inside the Flames dressing room that is good enough that Johnny Gaudreau can not walk in and immediately crack the lineup." is a slap in the face.

A slap in the face to who? And why?

Also, that was a comment from Spector, not the Flames. I do get his point though, he's trying to say, in order to justify sending say a player like Gaudreau down, you need to have players on the roster to beat him out of a spot in order to stop fans (not unlike yourself) having a freak out if he doesn't make the roster. But really, if the team can be disciplined, they don't need to do that, they just need to do what's best for the players and therefore the teams long term development.

That said, I do think increasing competition for roles and brining in tougher players for Johnny to compete against would probably be ideal for his development.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by New Era

Vitrol? Pointing out the Burke contradictions is vitrol?

No, but all of this is:

Originally Posted by New Era

Pointing out the stuff Burke has said since he started is speaking wrong of him? And I have to know him personally to develop a not favorable opinion of the man? Bashar al-Assad has never done anything to me to affect my life, but I recognize that he's done some pretty terrible things and probably isn't the nicest of person. Or maybe I should just give him another chance because I don't know him personally? Get serious.

BTW, I'm not saying that Brian Burke is anywhere near Bashar al-Assad in character or actions, I am using this extreme contrast to make a point about developing feelings towards others we don't know in person.

Sorry, I don't operate that way. If a guy was a delta bravo before he joined my team I believe he is a delta bravo until he proves otherwise. Todd Bertuzzi and Brian Marchment were both raging #######s before they joined the Flames and I don't think they did anything to prove otherwise when they played here. Why should a raging ####### get a second chance just because they put on your jersey? I think people that do that have zero conviction or character themselves.

I am giving him a chance, but to this point he has failed to deliver. He has continued to be the curmudgeon he's always been. He's continued to be a pompous jerk with the media, many of which he has no history with. He's continued to talk a big game but has yet to deliver anything of substance to this point. I could go on, but why bother, you'll just claim he's a great guy and deserves another chance.


There is a lot more we could focus on, but we have to be careful here. He is Brian Burke and if you speak too ill of him he will track you down and sue you.

Seriously, it's possible, if you're able, to speak about his hockey moves and business decisions without talking about his personal life or how much of a bad person you think he is.

It's childish and comes off kind of pathetic. He's a man no different than you or I (and even bringing up al/Assad as an "extreme" example is just petty and useless).

All I'm saying is let it go. Let's talk hockey, not about the personal histories of some people and how much we hate them as people, it's embarrassing to watch.

If you don't think he's made any important moves yet, that's cool, but it's no reason to hate him and call him names. If you can't reasonably be counted on to talk about him without slinging mud, calling names, and talking about his personal life, how is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you try to slip in a reference to his actual resume?

All you're doing is diluting your own point when you get petty about Burke. Let's raise the conversation and talk about something real, shall we? Something that actually matters? Instead of how he's a spoken to a reporter here or there or some defamation lawsuit from years ago. Who cares?

99% of people on CP don't seem to need to be that petty. Feel free to join the crowd.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by edslunch

If Gaudreau doesn't make the team, which is likely, it won't be because he wasn't good enough. It will be because they don't think he is strong enough or durable enough yet.

Exactly. I doubt the Flames brainstrust has failed to notice the guy can dangle and score, even playing against NHL calibre players. The question is whether it's worth risking a dislocated shoulder or a concussion so he can try his moves against NHLers, or whether it might be more prudent to give him a season of learning how to not to get hit by AHLers while building up some muscle and savvy. Burke clearly said "he gets hit too much."

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Exactly. I doubt the Flames brainstrust has failed to notice the guy can dangle and score, even playing against NHL calibre players. The question is whether it's worth risking a dislocated shoulder or a concussion so he can try his moves against NHLers, or whether it might be more prudent to give him a season of learning how to not to get hit by AHLers while building up some muscle and savvy. Burke clearly said "he gets hit too much."

Yea I agree. If it was up to me id send him down either way to bulk up. I would be scared of prematurely shortening this kids career although he will always be at risk for concussions due to his stature regardless I guess.

[polak]

Am I missing something? When did the AHL become some magical bulking up factory where little players with body types that pretty much guarantee they'll never be much bigger break those shackles and suddenly become 6 ft, 200 lbs?

Pretty sure they have better trainers and facilities in the NHL if anything.

He's not going to get much bigger than he is now and he's going to have to play full time against NHL'ers eventually. His size should not play a role in where he plays. The AHL won't get him "accustomed" to anything. Training camp will be more intense than the AHL anyways with full time NHL'ers and AHL'ers playing for their livelyhood.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Exactly. I doubt the Flames brainstrust has failed to notice the guy can dangle and score, even playing against NHL calibre players. The question is whether it's worth risking a dislocated shoulder or a concussion so he can try his moves against NHLers, or whether it might be more prudent to give him a season of learning how to not to get hit by AHLers while building up some muscle and savvy. Burke clearly said "he gets hit too much."

Hes gonna get hit. On most nights hes likely going to be the best player in a Flames uni. Teams will target him and try and hit him to slow him down. The NHL has some great hitters, hes gonna get hit regardless.

Originally Posted by Psytic

Yea I agree. If it was up to me id send him down either way to bulk up. I would be scared of prematurely shortening this kids career although he will always be at risk for concussions due to his stature regardless I guess.

This isnt a bad idea, however, college hockey has some big boys and hes taken some hits in the past. You dont get to this level without knowing how to take a hit and im sure hes been dodging bigger guys his entiire career. Question is, can he do it night in and night out against the best?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by polak

Am I missing something? When did the AHL become some magical bulking up factory where little players with body types that pretty much guarantee they'll never be much bigger break those shackles and suddenly become 6 ft, 200 lbs?

Pretty sure they have better trainers and facilities in the NHL if anything.

He's not going to get much bigger than he is now and he's going to have to play full time against NHL'ers eventually. His size should not play a role in where he plays. The AHL won't get him "accustomed" to anything. Training camp will be more intense than the AHL anyways with full time NHL'ers and AHL'ers playing for their livelyhood.

They aren't emphasizing the AHL for bulking up. They are emphasizing it for transitioning players to pro hockey by putting them in situations where they can succeed and not lose confidence while they hone their systems play, defensive responsibilities and consistency.

When you are inconsistent in the NHL the coach will often drop you lines and this can cause players to lose confidence in themselves, their abilities, etc. The AHL can be a much safer place to adapt to pro hockey for the long term success of a prospect.

Personally I think Gaudreau has a decent chance of making the Calgary Flames but I'm not sure why you aren't seeing the real reason they are hyping up AHL development.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

...I'm not sure why you aren't seeing the real reason they are hyping up AHL development.

Exactly.
As has been said before, Red Wings and Kings are good examples of teams that use AHL development to turn prospects into pros. It's not all about good drafting, it's good development as well. A tremendous young player might never amount to anything in a poor development system, and seemingly average prospects can develop into excellent NHLer's.
One needs only look north to see what happens when a team does not develop talented players (despite their ludicrous claim otherwise).

[King Theo]

Wow we have a good load of hate going on here. This is year 2 of the rebuild, give this team some time to see what they can do.

As to if Burke was a good hire or bad we do not know yet, and I do NOT what to fire anyone at this point, we are just getting started. We will not know if we are moving the right way for at least 18 more months.

[Vulcan]

Generally speaking Gaudrea will have a half second more to avoid a hit in the AHL compared to the NHL and the AHL will be a half second faster than what he experienced in College and the Worlds (bigger ice). The AHL will be a good transition to the pros. Oh and just because he may score at a PPG in the AHL, that doesn't mean he should be called up.