Province short teachers to mark diploma exams.....

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by peter12

We've been over this before. I'm a heartless dick.

Yeah I think you have proven that in the past week.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by photon

Don't want to get into the rest, but I can definitely say no to this.

Some parents with handicapped children sometimes THINK they know what's best for them, but usually the more confident they are in that the more wrong they are.

In my experience the bureaucrats don't have anything specific to say with regards to it at all other than to allocate resources. Whether those resources are enough for all scenarios can be debated, but I've never had a bureaucrat tell me what to do with my son, only provide access to resources, experienced people who in turn work with me so together we can come up with what's best for him.

I think a mistake you are making here is to assume that in a free-market system people are entirely atomized. What makes you think the absolutely necessary framework of expertise would just disappear?

[photon]

Originally Posted by peter12

I think a mistake you are making here is to assume that in a free-market system people are entirely atomized. What makes you think the absolutely necessary framework of expertise would just disappear?

I think a mistake you are making here is to assume that I was talking about the framework of expertise. I was talking about parents knowing what's best for their kids and bureaucrats not.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by photon

I think a mistake you are making here is to assume that I was talking about the framework of expertise. I was talking about parents knowing what's best for their kids and bureaucrats not.

No, what I am talking about innovation. I think you are speaking from an emotional standpoint, and while that is understandable, I don't see how it addresses my overall point, which is mainly that we can find more flexible solutions for education than central planning.

Parental input is probably more of a good thing than a bad thing.

[WinnipegFan]

Originally Posted by Sliver

It's not an insult so don't be a baby. If you don't want to do it, then don't. Nobody is forcing you and you can't get fired from being a teacher so what's the problem? Some people don't mind putting in extra effort to do what needs to be done, and people like you do. Don't worry about it, the rest of us will take care of it.

I don't refer to my contract every time I'm posed with a new task because I'm a grown up and understand I need to go above and beyond when looking at the big picture of what my company needs to accomplish. Who else should be marking these tests? Of course it needs to be teachers.



Quit worrying about who your employer is and look at who your customer is: students. It doesn't matter who signs your cheque; your job of educating and grading students hasn't changed.

And holy crap, here you are again with the "it is NOT part of our 12-month contract". Guy, people that work in the real world are expected to be somewhat flexible to accomplish what needs to be done within their organization. Did I go to university for four years to become a writer so I could stay late five nights in a row putting marketing message stickers on water bottles? Of course not, but after my day job is done I am occasionally required to help in other areas of our business so the company as a whole accomplishes what it needs to do. You have completely lost sight of the bigger picture of what is required of you and, frankly, it's ridiculous.

Wow, I hope you feel better after that vent.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Sliver

It's not an insult so don't be a baby. If you don't want to do it, then don't. Nobody is forcing you and you can't get fired from being a teacher so what's the problem? Some people don't mind putting in extra effort to do what needs to be done, and people like you do. Don't worry about it, the rest of us will take care of it.

I don't refer to my contract every time I'm posed with a new task because I'm a grown up and understand I need to go above and beyond when looking at the big picture of what my company needs to accomplish. Who else should be marking these tests? Of course it needs to be teachers.

Quit worrying about who your employer is and look at who your customer is: students. It doesn't matter who signs your cheque; your job of educating and grading students hasn't changed.

And holy crap, here you are again with the "it is NOT part of our 12-month contract". Guy, people that work in the real world are expected to be somewhat flexible to accomplish what needs to be done within their organization. Did I go to university for four years to become a writer so I could stay late five nights in a row putting marketing message stickers on water bottles? Of course not, but after my day job is done I am occasionally required to help in other areas of our business so the company as a whole accomplishes what it needs to do. You have completely lost sight of the bigger picture of what is required of you and, frankly, it's ridiculous.

Ummmmmm......he isn't being forced to do anything. Or can you read? From the article...

In mid-May, Alberta Education sent a letter to school authorities that said it needed about 240 more names of potential markers to get the grading done on time. Teachers are not required to do the marking, but volunteer.

So.............it's not about "wanting to do it" or not. They aren't required to do it, as their employers are the boards and not Alberta Education. AE contracts these positions for marking. He doesn't have to do it until he voluntarily agrees to do it. And here's the rub: This is why they have a shortage right now. They wanted to pay less, so they did; the result, unsuprinsingly, is fewer people want to do it. That is a textbook example of free market at play. They wanted to pay less, they have fewer available options. When they inevitably set it back to the amount before or to a higher amount than currently, there will be more options.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

Given that education in this province, for the most part, is centrally planned from a single department in the bureaucracy. They, by definition, have limited knowledge, but exaggerated confidence. This will inevitably distort their projections for educational demand. They obviously suffer enough shortfalls in their attempts to provide education to the general populace, that it must be laughable when services are provided to specific populations, such as the handicaps.

I'm sorry, by whose definition exactly? Are you making assumptions again or have you actually done research into the topic? I have my own experiences in this area, but they're largely anecdotal so I see no need in using them to bolster an argument.

Even so, vouchers could be introduced as a simple measure to pave the way for a more free private system. Cash would simply be transferred to parents based on funding already available. I assume you agree that parents with handicapped children know what is best for them, and bureaucrats don't.

That's a really lovely platitude and a blatant appeal to authority but I certainly would not agree. I would argue health care professionals, specialists, etc., are more qualified to assess the needs of a disabled child than their parents.

Your second comment really confuses me. How would costs increase in a system that doesn't subscribe to one-sized fits all?

I think you're misunderstanding my point. You argued that the cost of attending private schools would go down with an increased supply. My argument is that with increased operating costs, due to an increased student body, the cost might not decrease that substantially.

It would make sense to have a range of costs for parents and children with a range of needs. Right now, our system does a terrible job of providing that range.

Possibly, but what makes you so sure this is a structural issue as opposed to a funding issue?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by jeffman

The scantron machine broke down?

Nah, right now high school students are marked on things like writing essays. If they can't get this figured out it will go all multiple choice, which would be too bad.

[photon]

Originally Posted by peter12

No, what I am talking about innovation. I think you are speaking from an emotional standpoint, and while that is understandable, I don't see how it addresses my overall point, which is mainly that we can find more flexible solutions for education than central planning.

Right, but right at the beginning I said "Don't want to get into the rest", I was talking purely about parents knowing what's best. It doesn't address your overall point because it was not addressed to your overall point. If there are conclusions in your overall point that depend on the premise that parent knows best then I think they'd need to be re-evaluated, but I'm not attempting to do that.

It's not emotional, the biological act of reproducing doesn't impart any specialized knowledge or experience for typical kids, let alone atypical one. Every person I interact with in the system has talked about the wide range of parents, from the supposed experts that won't listen to anyone, to the apathetic ones who won't make any effort to help their kids at all.

Originally Posted by peter12

Parental input is probably more of a good thing than a bad thing.

Certainly, a parent probably knows their child better than anyone else, and a parent that isn't part of the process is just going to end up with poorer results for themselves and their kids, but there's a world if difference between having input and knowing what's best.

[peter12]

I'm sorry, by whose definition exactly? Are you making assumptions again or have you actually done research into the topic? I have my own experiences in this area, but they're largely anecdotal so I see no need in using them to bolster an argument.

This is the end of a reasonable discussion.

That's a really lovely platitude and a blatant appeal to authority but I certainly would not agree. I would argue health care professionals, specialists, etc., are more qualified to assess the needs of a disabled child than their parents.

So you raise my appeal to authority with one of your own?

I think you're misunderstanding my point. You argued that the cost of attending private schools would go down with an increased supply. My argument is that with increased operating costs, due to an increased student body, the cost might not decrease that substantially.

Possibly, but what makes you so sure this is a structural issue as opposed to a funding issue?

Increased student body? What?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Quit worrying about who your employer is and look at who your customer is: students. It doesn't matter who signs your cheque; your job of educating and grading students hasn't changed.

And holy crap, here you are again with the "it is NOT part of our 12-month contract". Guy, people that work in the real world are expected to be somewhat flexible to accomplish what needs to be done within their organization. Did I go to university for four years to become a writer so I could stay late five nights in a row putting marketing message stickers on water bottles? Of course not, but after my day job is done I am occasionally required to help in other areas of our business so the company as a whole accomplishes what it needs to do. You have completely lost sight of the bigger picture of what is required of you and, frankly, it's ridiculous.

This isn't like they asked them to cover for a guy who is off sick for a week, or help unload a truck when they are short staffed. This is travel to another city, mark exams for 8 hours, stay in a hotel. While you are there, make sure you also mark any remaining in class items before the deadline so we can get the report cards out.

That is so far out of the job description, I wouldn't even know where to start. not even counting that it is working for an entirely different company.

You are saying he should only be concerned about the customer? Should I get the guy at Starbucks to come rotate my tires? How about the landscaper to come in and fix my computer? I am the customer after all, why should they complain?

Missed this gem:

Originally Posted by Sliver

And BTW, Winnipeg Fan, if you worked at my company and pulled that "it's not my job" BS I would fire you on the spot. I've done it. I love doing it. People with that attitude are a cancer in a business.

Many companies have cyclical slow/busy seasons. June would be a busy season in your industry. The busy times are when you get to see who your star employees are and where the fat needs to be trimmed.

You would fire one of your employees for not doing something that another company asked them to do that wasn't part of their job description?

You sure that entire post wasn't a typo? You didn't spill your coffee on the keyboard and the dog typed it trying to clean it up?

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Locke

Teacher salaries are for all 12 months, so they'd be being paid their normal salary as well as an honorarium for doing 'extra work' for marking the exams and to cover travel costs, etc.

So the example of the Tim Horton's kid being paid more per hour on an exam marking day is total nonsense.

Actually, teachers salaries are for 10 months but the teachers have voted to have that spread over 12 months.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by photon

Certainly, a parent probably knows their child better than anyone else, and a parent that isn't part of the process is just going to end up with poorer results for themselves and their kids, but there's a world if difference between having input and knowing what's best.

My own schooling was a prime example of a parent being too involved and too uneducated to the detriment of my education.

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by Sliver

And holy crap, here you are again with the "it is NOT part of our 12-month contract". Guy, people that work in the real world are expected to be somewhat flexible to accomplish what needs to be done within their organization. Did I go to university for four years to become a writer so I could stay late five nights in a row putting marketing message stickers on water bottles? Of course not, but after my day job is done I am occasionally required to help in other areas of our business so the company as a whole accomplishes what it needs to do. You have completely lost sight of the bigger picture of what is required of you and, frankly, it's ridiculous.

Do you stay late to put stickers on other companies' water bottles?

Most teachers I know don't like the whole system for Diploma tests. It's not really surprising that there isn't a ton of support for it when it's not required, not liked, and not well compensated.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by rubecube

That's a really lovely platitude and a blatant appeal to authority but I certainly would not agree. I would argue health care professionals, specialists, etc., are more qualified to assess the needs of a disabled child than their parents.

Originally Posted by peter12

So you raise my appeal to authority with one of your own?

Peter, if you can't trust health professionals and specialists to determine what the health needs of a special needs child are, who can you trust? Sure the parents get final say, but it's not like they went out and got a degree in pediatric medicine to figure out what they should be doing, they likely talked to a doctor (or some pseudo-medical practitioner or documentation) about these things.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

This is the end of a reasonable discussion.

You posted a definitive statement. I asked you to provide support for that statement, and I'm being unreasonable? I think if anything this proves that your claim is ideologically based as opposed to empirically.

So you raise my appeal to authority with one of your own?

And you're either being intentionally obtuse if you can't discern the difference between the two authorities.

Increased student body? What?

Unless all current private school as operating at 100% capacity, their student body is going to increase if you moved to a completely private system, unless you seriously believe that supply would drastically outpace demand. Speaking of which, if you moved to a voucher system that covered a certain amount, but were in a situation where demand significantly outpaced supply, I don't think it's a stretch to guess that the price of education would probably be significantly higher than what the voucher covered.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Nah, right now high school students are marked on things like writing essays. If they can't get this figured out it will go all multiple choice, which would be too bad.

I'm sure a bright and capable computer scientist/programmer/developer can put together some piece of software to objectively mark "written" portions of exams. The schools/Alberta Educations might have to provide computers for the written portion though. Grading/judging grammar and spelling should be easy enough. Thought process and content might be more difficult though.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Rathji

This isn't like they asked them to cover for a guy who is off sick for a week, or help unload a truck when they are short staffed. This is travel to another city, mark exams for 8 hours, stay in a hotel. While you are there, make sure you also mark any remaining in class items before the deadline so we can get the report cards out.

That is so far out of the job description, I wouldn't even know where to start. not even counting that it is working for an entirely different company.

You are saying he should only be concerned about the customer? Should I get the guy at Starbucks to come rotate my tires? How about the landscaper to come in and fix my computer? I am the customer after all, why should they complain?

WTF are you talking about? Teachers mark stuff every week if not every day. It's kind of a big part of what they do. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they teach kids stuff, then test the kids, then mark the tests to see how well the kids did? That's exactly what they're being asked to do here. Nobody is asking them to fly a plane. Your post is bizarre.

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

Do you stay late to put stickers on other companies' water bottles?

Most teachers I know don't like the whole system for Diploma tests. It's not really surprising that there isn't a ton of support for it when it's not required, not liked, and not well compensated.

I would, have and do help my customers even if I don't directly get paid. It's called providing good customer service. If, however, I had other plans or obligations and was unable to go beyond what was explicitly expected of me, then I wouldn't. Teachers have all those same options with this so I don't understand the whining.

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by Sliver

WTF are you talking about? Teachers mark stuff every week if not every day. It's kind of a big part of what they do. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they teach kids stuff, then test the kids, then mark the tests to see how well the kids did? That's exactly what they're being asked to do here. Nobody is asking them to fly a plane. Your post is bizarre.



I would, have and do help my customers even if I don't directly get paid. It's called providing good customer service. If, however, I had other plans or obligations and was unable to go beyond what was explicitly expected of me, then I wouldn't. Teachers have all those same options with this so I don't understand the whining.

They're not whining. The issue is that there are not enough teachers signing up to do the marking. They are making their choice, and the majority of them are deciding not to sign up. The decrease in pay was too much and is no longer market value.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Sliver

WTF are you talking about? Teachers mark stuff every week if not every day. It's kind of a big part of what they do. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they teach kids stuff, then test the kids, then mark the tests to see how well the kids did? That's exactly what they're being asked to do here. Nobody is asking them to fly a plane. Your post is bizarre.

Sigh....please read the article. Or any of the posts that have accurately countered you. Non Alberta Education employees (i.e. almost all teachers in this province, who are employed by their local boards) are not required to mark the diplomas. Whether they mark tests 24/7/365 is not relevant. This is not a job requirement. They VOLUNTEER to do it, and are compensated for their time. The province wants to pay less, fine. They have less available help, the direct consequence of choosing to pay less. The only person whining in here is you.