[News] Kevin Hayes signs with the Rangers

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The sooner he gets signed the better. The sooner the coaches can get in front of him, and lay out what's expected of him, the better. Development camp is usually in July, and it would be much better for him and the organization if he were there, and not twisting in the wind.

Sure, but is that advantage worth a second-round pick (or better) all by itself? One development camp, one month of following the Flames' training regimen instead of somebody else's? That's not going to make or break any prospect. Whereas giving up the pick means having one less prospect, period.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Parallex

What is that based on? I havn't seen anything in regards to an NHL placement demand... did I miss an interview on the matter?

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/blac...weighs-signing

“There are a number of issues we’re trying to evaluate,” Murray said. “Depth of organization has some bearing on it."

From his agent.

It's not a demand or anything. But that's why I said "seems" and not "is".

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by MattyC

“There are a number of issues we’re trying to evaluate,” Murray said. “Depth of organization has some bearing on it."

From his agent.

It's not a demand or anything. But that's why I said "seems" and not "is".

That doesn't seem like any sort of insistence or demand to skip the AHL... just a recognition that he'd have a better shot at making the NHL faster somewhere else with better opportunities for ice-time. Which is true considering how absurdly deep the Blackhawks are.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Parallex

That doesn't seem like any sort of insistence or demand to skip the AHL... just a recognition that he'd have a better shot at making the NHL faster somewhere else with better opportunities for ice-time. Which is true considering how absurdly deep the Blackhawks are.

Yes you're right. I personally just don't like the thought forcing a trade from the organization that has invested in you for an easier route is on the lazy side of things. If you think you're a budding star, show up and prove it.

Probably better for him personally so you can't really fault him, just like you can't fault Knight for something similar, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth as I said.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yes you're right. I personally just don't like the thought forcing a trade from the organization that has invested in you for an easier route is on the lazy side of things.

But then, what have the Hawks invested in Hayes? Only a draft pick. They didn't coach him; they didn't develop him in their farm system; they didn't even give him free advice on training and nutrition – or if they did, they were breaking NCAA rules to do so. Up to this point, the only organization that has put significant investment into Hayes was Boston College.

[Stupid]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

But then, what have the Hawks invested in Hayes? Only a draft pick. They didn't coach him; they didn't develop him in their farm system; they didn't even give him free advice on training and nutrition – or if they did, they were breaking NCAA rules to do so. Up to this point, the only organization that has put significant investment into Hayes was Boston College.

Time. You had a dude back in whatever year he was picked and he was supposed to start becoming valuable after a period of ripening.
If you have to restart that period of ripening that hurts your organization because you miss out (for at least another while) on the sweet period where the player is supposed to somehow pay off for the time it took to get ready.

Time = Money

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Stupid

Time. You had a dude back in whatever year he was picked and he was supposed to start becoming valuable after a period of ripening.

Fair enough; but is that an investment that Hayes owes them anything for? The time would have passed whether he was drafted or not. It's difficult to argue that he is a better player because the Hawks were waiting for him to develop in NCAA hockey, as opposed to some other team.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Parallex

... all players can do this. 4 years is the standard period under which the draft grants NHL teams a exclusive negotiating right.

Except that when NCAA players who finish school those rights are down to a couple of months. If a junior player doesn't sign he goes back in the draft and can't get to choose his team after his last season. It's a stupid rule and it needs to be changed. The entry draft shouldn't be mocked, If a player doesn't like the team that drafted him, either go back to the draft or sit a year.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by T@T

Except that when NCAA players who finish school those rights are down to a couple of months. If a junior player doesn't sign he goes back in the draft and can't get to choose his team after his last season. It's a stupid rule and it needs to be changed. The entry draft shouldn't be mocked, If a player doesn't like the team that drafted him, either go back to the draft or sit a year.

After two years a CHL player gets to go back in the draft, what happens after two more? I think if he doesn't sign with his new team he'd be a UFA after the 4th year mark too.

[Enoch Root]

but '4 years' is very misleading with respect to NCAA players because they cannot be signed during the 4 years that they are in school. In reality, there is only a few months to sign them.

By contrast, junior players can be signed at any time during their 2 year window.

[keratosis]

Same with the NCAA players. Just can't play collage hockey if they do.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by keratosis

Same with the NCAA players. Just can't play collage hockey if they do.

But that makes it not the same. CHL players can sign a contract and carry on developing.

NCAA players can't sign if they want to finish school. That forces a choice on them that shouldn't be forced. And the result of that choice, if they choose school, is that there is an unrealistically - and unfairly - short window to sign them while they have free agency dangling in their face.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

But that makes it not the same. CHL players can sign a contract and carry on developing.

NCAA players can't sign if they want to finish school. That forces a choice on them that shouldn't be forced. And the result of that choice, if they choose school, is that there is an unrealistically - and unfairly - short window to sign them while they have free agency dangling in their face.

Well that's an NCAA problem and not a draft problem though. Until they abandon the bs "student athlete" mantra, it will be this way.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

But that makes it not the same. CHL players can sign a contract and carry on developing.

NCAA players can't sign if they want to finish school..

So can college guys... they just can't do it in the NCAA. If they sign they carry on developing in the AHL. And they can finish school... they don't cease being students when they sign a contract they just lose NCAA eligibility.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

But that makes it not the same. CHL players can sign a contract and carry on developing.

NCAA players can't sign if they want to finish school. That forces a choice on them that shouldn't be forced. And the result of that choice, if they choose school, is that there is an unrealistically - and unfairly - short window to sign them while they have free agency dangling in their face.

If the NCAA player is young enough... he can sign and go play junior. This happens often. The Flames could have signed Jankowski and/or Gaudreau and had them play in the CHL.

[PeteMoss]

Also in Hayes case - I really doubt that it was his dream to finish school. The Hawks are right up against the contract limit and have been letting drafted players go (they didn't sign their 2010 35th overall pick). He likely would have signed if they moved quicker, they waited and took the risk of this quick window.

[Enoch Root]

You guys can all pretend the situations are the same but they are not. And waiting for the NCAA to fix the problem would be foolish.

The NHL needs to address this.

I think a simple solution would be to have a longer period where their rights are retained once they finish school. If not signing would mean missing a year, the problem would be largely eliminated.

For example. Hayes finishes school in April. If Chicago were then given 1 year to sign him, they would have his rights through the next playing season. He would sign.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You guys can all pretend the situations are the same but they are not. And waiting for the NCAA to fix the problem would be foolish.

The NHL needs to address this.

I think a simple solution would be to have a longer period where their rights are retained once they finish school. If not signing would mean missing a year, the problem would be largely eliminated.

For example. Hayes finishes school in April. If Chicago were then given 1 year to sign him, they would have his rights through the next playing season. He would sign.

Yeah, he would sign or go to Europe or sign an AHL contract. Still it would give NHL teams some leverage. As it is, you draft a player going the US college route and there is always the question, will he sign? We went through that here with Gaudreau where there was much wringing of hands and it wasn't just the fans, the Flames were never sure he'd sign either.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

After two years a CHL player gets to go back in the draft, what happens after two more? I think if he doesn't sign with his new team he'd be a UFA after the 4th year mark too.

If a player goes back in the draft and doesn't sign with his new team it's a safe bet he'll be a bust and never see the NHL. Junior players really have no place to play past age 20, College players do...huge difference and in a way it's a loophole to get to UFA status as young as age 21.

Lets say Jankowski puts on 30lbs and puts up MVP type numbers the next 2 years, all of a sudden he goes from being a joke Feaster pick to being a huge 6'4 220lb point producing center and the best player in college but because maybe he might like playing closer to home in the east decides to wait till Aug 2016 and becomes a UFA to pick his own team..

And this before his 22nd birthday.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by T@T

If a player goes back in the draft and doesn't sign with his new team it's a safe bet he'll be a bust and never see the NHL. Junior players really have no place to play past age 20, College players do...huge difference and in a way a loophole.

Not a loophole at all.

Any prospect that would be good enough to not only get a contract offer but to get two (after being redrafted) would without a doubt have a place to play. Any number of European leagues would sign him or he could sign a PTO with a NA minor-pro team... worst case is that he spends a year availing himself of the tuition money CHL guys get and plays CIS for a year.

There really is no difference. It's 4 years regardless of where you come out of.