Ring Road To Nowhere

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

That is not true. If the movement was prevented you wouldn't have weaving, there is no traffic streams that would have to cross.

If you put up a barrier that would prevent that movement, it would also prevent straight through traffic from moving over to the left. All the straight through traffic on Crowchild would have to get into one single lane.

So, no, not a "weave zone" per se, but in no way would it make traffic better.

[Acey]

Here's what your $770 million has done so far. Opening day was November 22.

These numbers are total vehicles per day... (click here for source)

Stoney Trail SE (formerly 22X) east of 52 St SE

Nov. 22: 18 417
Nov 26: 26 782
Nov 29: 28 566

Stoney Trail SE near 61 Ave

Nov 22: 16 169
Nov 26: 35 819
Nov 29: 37 717

Stoney Trail NE

Nov. 15 to 22: 37 813 to 38 865
Nov. 19 to 26: 30 378 to 40 594
Nov. 22 to 29: 38 865 to 44 674 (18.145% overall increase)

Deerfoot Trail

Nov. 15 to Nov 22: 162 373 to 156 573
Nov. 19 to Nov 26: 131 574 to 140 847
Nov. 22 to Nov 29: 156 573 to 161 981 (0.238% overall decrease)

Looks like there was an initial spike of Deerfoot users heading over to Stoney to try it out and determine if it was faster, explaining the initial drop in Deerfoot volume. I anticipated this. I also anticipated the Deerfoot volume creeping back up as people determined that it wasn't faster for their particular route, while the Stoney volume would continue to rise as people came from other routes like Barlow, 52 St, etc. to have a go and see if it was faster for their route. What I did NOT anticipate was Deerfoot volume climbing up to pretty much exactly what it was before, but with 45,000 vehicles now on Stoney SE? Where have they come from?!

Will Stoney Trail SE be used as a world example of induced demand? From a Deerfoot perspective its important to note that the return to original volume is not a fatal error because a) a notably lower percentage of those 160,000 vehicles are big trucks, which is a big deal so traffic moves better, and b) Stoney wasn't really meant to fix Deerfoot anyway so they're off the hook. I'd love to hear from engineers (not biased people from AB Trans) who could decipher these numbers and arrive at some meaningful conclusion beyond the obvious, which is that we needed Stoney SE really really bad.

[BlackArcher101]

What location are the deerfoot volume numbers coming from?

[Acey]

They didn't say. In the 2012 data available here the points that are up around 160k are on either side of Memorial, 17 Ave S, 16 Ave N, 32 Ave N... so it's likely one of those. I'd like to see how the numbers at Peigan have changed, for example. We'll get all that in time I hope.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

What location are the deerfoot volume numbers coming from?

Another question would be what is the average time to travel Deerfoot. I felt like traffic flow really improved, during rush hour. Not a lot of constant braking and creeping along at 5kph.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Another question would be what is the average time to travel Deerfoot. I felt like traffic flow really improved, during rush hour. Not a lot of constant braking and creeping along at 5kph.

Yeah, if you think of Deerfoot like a straw, where only so much can get through it at a time, and trying to stuff too much in just clogs it up completely...and now the pressure has been relieved a bit (from SE Stoney and from Stoney relieving routes like Barlow and 52nd as well), the flow through the straw is quicker, meaning more cars make it through. If Deerfoot is jammed for longer, that diverts more vehicles away from it during those times.

Of course, that's just speculation...for all we know 40,000 vehicles have appeared from the suburbs that have been parked, waiting for Stoney to open!

[Acey]

Not scientific, but this guy did some testing:

On days one, three and five, I drove Deerfoot Trail. The drive times were 37, 38, and 45 minutes. On days two and four, I drove Stoney Trail. The times: 38 and 45 minutes, respectively. Statistically, it’s easy to see the drive times are roughly the same...

Pretty much says what we've already discussed here; Stoney might not save time depending on where you're going, but regardless it is a much less irritating drive, safer, etc.

http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/893...-stoney-trail/

[ranchlandsselling]

It isn't necessarily induced demand. It could be other roads than Deerfoot that have had decreased traffic.

[4X4]

I've been driving Stoney quite a bit lately, and I must say it's been pretty good. People seem to be following the 'slower traffic keep right' quite a bit more than they do on Deerfoot. It's really, really nice.

One thing that maybe someone can answer is how come they went and did the same dumb thing they did on Deerfoot and have the lanes constantly increasing and decreasing? There are stretches where it's 2-3-4 lanes, there is constantly a lane disappearing, reappearing, and on top of that, there is at least one spot where the new lane opens up on the left, and another spot where the left lane disappears. Seriously, what's up with that?

[Acey]

It can all be explained by the incredibly extensive cost-benefit analysis that went into this project. The contractor is paying for maintenance over the next 30 years as well, so you don't want to build more pavement than you need to as that's also more pavement to plow and maintain. The 8 lane section between Glen and Peigan is a beauty... but from a CBA prospective it was probably tough to justify building the whole leg to 8 lanes for the ~40,000 vehicles it's carrying at the moment. Unlike Deerfoot, they've intentionally left football fields of room out there to widen the road as necessary, mostly into the median.

There's really only 2 big lane crunches of concern... one is from 4 lanes to 2 NB at 17 Ave, but that is the project limit and the NE was built to only 2 lanes, so it's not really their fault. Hopefully the province has money to widen the NE leg soon, as they're currently doing in the NW. The other crunch is EB right at the 88 St/22X complex where only 2 lanes go around the curve to head NB. I'd have loved to be a fly on the wall when they deliberated on the final configuration for this section.

As for the Deerfoot comparison, yes lanes are coming and going, but the similarities end there. Unlike Deerfoot, this road conforms to the Highway Geometric Design Guide; merge lanes are like a kilometer long, interchanges are not too close together, and there's no 17 Ave/Blackfoot/Memorial/Calf Robe curves of death. Exit lanes come and go, but there is strict maintenance of through lanes so that no lane changing is required, like the NB Crowchild at Memorial disaster.

I'm betting if you cranked Stoney up to 160,000 vehicles per day (Deerfoot levels) it wouldn't grind to a halt (aside from the aforementioned 17 Ave crunch), and all the little things we currently perceive to be design quirks would work beautifully.

(not an engineer, just followed the project closely)

[You Need a Thneed]

Generally, the SE portion is 3 continuous lanes, plus an additional lane between interchanges. SB has three continuous lanes all the way from 17th, to the Deerfoot exit. No lanes are added on the left side.

Northbound, the third lane ends just before rounding the corner to turn northbound.
Then, it ends again at 17th. The ending at 17th is a serious bottleneck right now, as within a couple hundred metres, four lanes turns into two (one exiting off to 17th ave), then the EB to NB ramp merges in, THEN, the WB to NB ramp merges in. Once the traffic merges in, traffic begins to speed up a bit again. Adding the third continuous lane, and then adding the fourth lane between 17th and 16th will pretty much solve that bottleneck.

[Acey]

^ Yeah it's pretty much just that crunch. The other crunch from 4 to 2 down by 52 St... there's not much traffic down there. Haven't seen that curve during the morning rush but I can't imagine it's anything to write home about and they knew that, so 2 lanes was fine. It gets my OCD going a bit when SB is 3 lanes and NB is 2.

[Northendzone]

i must say that we have now taken stoney a few times as we have travelled to and from red deer - i think it takes a little more time, but it is a lot easier to drive as it is not as congested, and there are no curves of death - flat, straight and wide open. i think the speed limit could easily be 120 kph.

[psicodude]

It's also 2 lanes EB across the river as well, but again, not a big deal at this point. It may become an issue when the SW portion gets built, but they have lots of time.

[Acey]

Widening a bridge that long is expensive, and it's an extremely sensitive environmental area. Not much traffic down there for it to be an issue. Cost-benefit.

[Knut]

I have loved driving Stoney Northbound from Glenmore to 16ave when i travel to Strathmore. It has cut down on my travel on the busy 2-lane roads East of the city and shaves about 5-6 minutes off my commute.

[iggyformayor]

My wife and I are currenly looking into buying a home in Mahogany, and the SE leg of the ring road is a huge part of that. If Deerfoot was really the only option going as far north as I have to, we wouldn't even be considering it. From talk with people I know who live in the same area, my commute would actually be similar, if not shorter than my current commute which is from a much more central location.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Living in Chestermere, it's so much easier to go visit my buddy in Millrise now with the SE portion open. I can make it door to door in 25-30 minutes, shaving a good 15 minutes off the trip if I took 16th ave to Deerfoot. Thankfully I don't know anyone in the far SW of the city, since that's really the only place left that's a pain in the ass to get to

[Calgary14]

Does anyone know what the gov means by the term "partial interchange"? I ask because we have family in Silverado and they're worried they wont have north/south access when the ring road is completed. Currently there is an intersection at 22x and 6th street. I assume this will be eliminated but will traffic be able to flow from Silverado north on 6th street?

[Acey]

Yeah. Partial in this case means partial access to/from Stoney, but you'll be able to cross on the bridge.