Toronto collapses again, still suck.

[stignasty]

[moon]

Originally Posted by maxpower29

You should be lucky to have Burke in your organization. He was only fired because the new owners did not like him. Not only did he get Phaneuf, Lupul, Gardiner, Ashton (was Aulie), and JVR for basically nothing,

I like all those deals done by Burke but "basically nothing" is such a load of crap and exgerration and it is these types of comments from yourself and Big Tuna that makes it tough for posters here to take your garbage seriously.

Just like Big Tuna if you could just talk about the Leafs reasonably and not in such hyperbole's perhaps you would find people more willing to talk reasonably about the Leafs back.

[maxpower29]

Originally Posted by moon

I like all those deals done by Burke but "basically nothing" is such a load of crap and exgerration and it is these types of comments from yourself and Big Tuna that makes it tough for posters here to take your garbage seriously.

Just like Big Tuna if you could just talk about the Leafs reasonably and not in such hyperbole's perhaps you would find people more willing to talk reasonably about the Leafs back.

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Yes you are correct, I should not say "Nothing". But there were no real loss in most deals.

Schenn - Leafs management destroyed this guys development to the point he is a 5-6 player on the flyers
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Beachemin - we signed him UFA because Anaheim would not give him another 3 year deal. He wanted to stay with the ducks but when he hurt his knee they were skeptical and decided to let walk. So a year later, they got him back, and we gained Lupul and Gardiner, and a 4th round pick, and they still paid him on the same 3 year contract they refused to give him the season before.
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Stajan, Hagman, Mayers, White. - A team rebuilding and getting rid of 2-3 line players who are UFA is not a loss to the team. All 4 of these players would not have came back the following year, and Hagman was a sell high situation. No real value in that trade leaving outside of White, who for some reason dropped of significantly over the next few years.
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As it sits right now, none of the players listed outside of maybe Schenn (but his contract is a bit high) would be welcome back on this team

[FlameZilla]

Welcome to CP maxpower29!

I don't think anyone on CP would say the Flames are in a better position than the Leafs, as you've alluded to. We're all very much aware that we're in the midst of a rebuild. Despite the positivity that surrounds the youth movement here it is difficult to avoid the fact that we finished 27th this season.

It's nice that you cheer for the Flames sometimes, but we're all entitled to our biases & opinions about certain teams. I hate the Leafs. I don't know why. It doesn't matter; they could be the greatest sports franchise in the world (HA!!) and I would still dislike them. Don't take it personally!

[moon]

Sure they may not be good fits for the current Leafs team, although I think Beauchemin would be a very good partner for Phaneuf and better than Gunnarsson for sure.

Schenn JVR is great but Schenn has a lot more value than you seem to be giving him.

[maxpower29]

Originally Posted by moon

Sure they may not be good fits for the current Leafs team, although I think Beauchemin would be a very good partner for Phaneuf and better than Gunnarsson for sure.

Schenn JVR is great but Schenn has a lot more value than you seem to be giving him.

I love Schenn and always did, but forcing him to play here at 18-19 under an idiot coach killed him. I dont think he will ever be the player he could have been. I would still personally take him back, but without his brother coming (they wouldnt likely trade Brayden) I dont see it happening.
Beachemin was paired with Phaneuf a few times when they were both here and they did not work at all. I dont know why, but just didnt. Its true Gunnarsson is not a #2, but hes still a good 3-4-5 guy, but unfortunately until they either sign/trade someone, or Rielly develops into one, they will not have the #2 guy they need to compete with.

[trublmaker]

[QUOTE=maxpower29;4729360]I came across this site and after reading a few post I felt I had to join in because most of the comments are just ridiculous and clear hate towards a team some have no clue how it is being built.
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Everyone is welcome to post here. For starters did you read the thread title, what did you expect to find in here? Also this is a rival team forum what did you expect to find in here? Welcome to CP.

[maxpower29]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

Welcome to CP maxpower29!

I don't think anyone on CP would say the Flames are in a better position than the Leafs, as you've alluded to. We're all very much aware that we're in the midst of a rebuild. Despite the positivity that surrounds the youth movement here it is difficult to avoid the fact that we finished 27th this season.

It's nice that you cheer for the Flames sometimes, but we're all entitled to our biases & opinions about certain teams. I hate the Leafs. I don't know why. It doesn't matter; they could be the greatest sports franchise in the world (HA!!) and I would still dislike them. Don't take it personally!

lol I enjoy the honesty. I just hate the habs, sens, canucks, and oilers enough to like the flames. Finishing 27 is a good thing, lots of talent this year even though there is no clear #1 Mackinnon type guy. I live here in Halifax and watched him, Drouin, and Ehlers a lot and anyone grabbing Ehlers (not saying 4th overall, but if flames got another pick somehow) will be happy. Hes much more physical then people think, and his size is his only real downfall.
You have to look at organizations like LA, who were #### for so long drafting high and making trades. They did not completely tank like the Oilers, but they were top 10 so many times and built a core around it. 2 year before their cup they finished 26th remember. Its not always as bad as it seems

[maxpower29]

[QUOTE=trublmaker;4729408]

Originally Posted by maxpower29

I came across this site and after reading a few post I felt I had to join in because most of the comments are just ridiculous and clear hate towards a team some have no clue how it is being built.
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Everyone is welcome to post here. For starters did you read the thread title, what did you expect to find in here? Also this is a rival team forum what did you expect to find in here? Welcome to CP.

lol your right, I was just flipping through sites drinking some tea this morning and enjoyed most of this one enough to join. Should be interesting to watch the flames build because like I said, they are going to have to do the same drafting (high and low picks), trades, and signings the leafs did to climb out of the basement. I have faith Burke will do it though, he really did do a good job here

[strombad]

Originally Posted by maxpower29

lol your right, I was just flipping through sites drinking some tea this morning and enjoyed most of this one enough to join. Should be interesting to watch the flames build because like I said, they are going to have to do the same drafting (high and low picks), trades, and signings the leafs did to climb out of the basement. I have faith Burke will do it though, he really did do a good job here

It seems like you'll fit in a lot better than BigTuna, just avoid hyperbole and calling the Leafs "elite" every 5 seconds and you'll be fine. As has been said, we KNOW the Flames are in tough right now, but being the Leafs are one of the bigger rivals for a lot of people, animosity is to be expected.

Welcome to CP, Leafs still suck!

[MoneyGuy]

The Leaves were nine points into a playoff spot with 14 games left, then finished nine points out of the playoffs. Eighteen-point drop in 14 games. Monumental collapse.

[maxpower29]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

The Leaves were nine points into a playoff spot with 14 games left, then finished nine points out of the playoffs. Eighteen-point drop in 14 games. Monumental collapse.

Excellent assessment. Nobody is arguing different. Did you take the time to read any of this thread?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by maxpower29

Schenn - Leafs management destroyed this guys development to the point he is a 5-6 player on the flyers

I find this interesting, because I certainly agree that JVR for Schenn was highway robbery. But it does create a bit of a two-faced argument wrt to Burke because he was the management that destroyed this guy's development. Fortunately for us, he may have learned from this mistake, thus why Baertschi spent most of the year in the AHL.

Regardless, welcome aboard!

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by maxpower29

Excellent assessment. Nobody is arguing different. Did you take the time to read any of this thread?

He's just mad because he's an Oilers fan and they are no good.

[maxpower29]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I find this interesting, because I certainly agree that JVR for Schenn was highway robbery. But it does create a bit of a two-faced argument wrt to Burke because he was the management that destroyed this guy's development. Fortunately for us, he may have learned from this mistake, thus why Baertschi spent most of the year in the AHL.

Regardless, welcome aboard!

This was old management though, the Cliff era. Burke Did not come in until halfway through the season.

[FlameZilla]

Burke really wasn't in Toronto very long, was he? Seems to have made an impact, both for better and for worse. I do, however keep mistaking the moves of different Toronto GMs for his handiwork. Is there a site with a breakdown of all Burke's actions while at the helm?

BigTuna & maxpower29: what is your honest assessment of Burke's positive & negative moves in T.O.? It's interesting to see if he'll have the same impact in Calgary (before he hires his eventual replacement).

[maxpower29]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

Burke really wasn't in Toronto very long, was he? Seems to have made an impact, both for better and for worse. I do, however keep mistaking the moves of different Toronto GMs for his handiwork. Is there a site with a breakdown of all Burke's actions while at the helm?

BigTuna & maxpower29: what is your honest assessment of Burke's positive & negative moves in T.O.? It's interesting to see if he'll have the same impact in Calgary (before he hires his eventual replacement).

The only issue I ever had with him was signing Grabovski to 5.5 mil (forcing a buyout basically) and in the 2011-12 season he refused to deal Grabo, Macarthur, and Kulemin all for 1st round picks that were offered and through all sources were legit deal, but kept them and missed the playoffs. We then went on to buyout Grabovski, let Macarthur walk free, and Kulemin will walk free this season. That was a big set back that year and you look at later players picked like Hertl, Subban, and Maatta, the leafs couldhave easily chosen one of them, if not more with those 3 picks.
Other then that Burke was excellent here. He built the whole thing. Nonis would not even be here without him. Hes excellent at drafting, and excellent at trades. Was not overly successful in the UFA market though with many blunders like Connolly, Komisarek, and Armstrong. But did pick a few good ones up like Macarthur, Bozak, and Beauchemin (turned into 4th, gardiner, lupul)
He will be good for Calgary I have no doubt, but I did see this issue again this trade deadline where he was too stubborn to trade Cammalleri for the best offer and maybe others. You really need to pile picks up to draft players at any point. Toronto is now in the stage where his later picks are starting to get close to the NHL and you see more and more each year. Connor Brown lead the OHL with 128 pts this season, he was a Burke 6th round pick in 2012.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by maxpower29

The only issue I ever had with him was signing Grabovski to 5.5 mil (forcing a buyout basically) and in the 2011-12 season he refused to deal Grabo, Macarthur, and Kulemin all for 1st round picks that were offered and through all sources were legit deal, but kept them and missed the playoffs. We then went on to buyout Grabovski, let Macarthur walk free, and Kulemin will walk free this season. That was a big set back that year and you look at later players picked like Hertl, Subban, and Maatta, the leafs couldhave easily chosen one of them, if not more with those 3 picks.
Other then that Burke was excellent here. He built the whole thing. Nonis would not even be here without him. Hes excellent at drafting, and excellent at trades. Was not overly successful in the UFA market though with many blunders like Connolly, Komisarek, and Armstrong. But did pick a few good ones up like Macarthur, Bozak, and Beauchemin (turned into 4th, gardiner, lupul)
He will be good for Calgary I have no doubt, but I did see this issue again this trade deadline where he was too stubborn to trade Cammalleri for the best offer and maybe others. You really need to pile picks up to draft players at any point. Toronto is now in the stage where his later picks are starting to get close to the NHL and you see more and more each year. Connor Brown lead the OHL with 128 pts this season, he was a Burke 6th round pick in 2012.

Regarding Cammalleri though, surely at some point you don't make the trade? Is there a limit to how low the offer is before you say, "Not going to trade him for that"?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by maxpower29

This was old management though, the Cliff era. Burke Did not come in until halfway through the season.

Burke joined the Leafs at the end of in November 2008, less than two months after Schenn made his debut. Certainly the Leafs already burned a year of Schenn's contract by the time Burke came aboard, but it is undeniable that Burke was the GM for virtually all of Schenn's career in Toronto. If the player was damaged by being rushed, Burke bears much of the responsibility for that.

[maxpower29]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Regarding Cammalleri though, surely at some point you don't make the trade? Is there a limit to how low the offer is before you say, "Not going to trade him for that"?

I dont agree, having a 31 year old Cammalleri does not help your hockey team if he is unsigned. If he walks you get nothing. A 2nd round pick is better then that. Burke probably could have ate salary in a deal to get a 2nd or better. If he does not resign him, it was just another lost draft pick.
Players like Giordano, Hudler, Wideman and Cammalleri are at their peak in value right now and should be used to get younger players. The problem is that playoff revenue is millions of dollars a game and most owners want to make them. They would not want to trade these players because it basically axes any hope for a few year. I know you guys probably love Giordano but the massive return he could get right now is the best option IMO for the Flames to do. your looking at a 1st round pick, good prospect, and roster player.