Military procurement/kit thread

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/new...ate=2014-03-12

Pretty damning article on the state of our navy.

Stuff like this really annoys me. I understand the logistical challenge that comes with how to best utilize our limited naval resources with regards to defending our vast coasts vs. overseas deployments. Not to mention having no easy access between coasts (including the north) to move naval assets around. But the amount of money wasted on half-assed, delayed and failed procurement in this country in recent years is staggering.

Half of me would love to see a breakdown of the total amount of money that has gone towards nothing over the years due to the failed procurement process. Half of me would probably not as I can only guess at how disgusted I'd be.

Pretty sad actually.

[Doodlebug]

Very sad state of affairs for a country with the worlds longest coastline to defend, and a proud naval history.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by FlamesAllTheWay

Half of me would love to see a breakdown of the total amount of money that has gone towards nothing over the years due to the failed procurement process. Half of me would probably not as I can only guess at how disgusted I'd be.

I'm actually a little surprised there hasn't been a story on this. It has to be huge. And people get their feathers all ruffled up over a trip to SA wroth $45k.

That would be, quite literally, a drop in the bucket compared to how much has been wasted on cancelled contracts/studies/BS.

If we are going to have a military, let's have a freakin military.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

I'm actually a little surprised there hasn't been a story on this. It has to be huge. And people get their feathers all ruffled up over a trip to SA wroth $45k.

That would be, quite literally, a drop in the bucket compared to how much has been wasted on cancelled contracts/studies/BS.

If we are going to have a military, let's have a freakin military.

Canada has never had a well equiped military. I believe it is a reflection of never having to worry about being invade or having a war fought on our soil.

Canadians just don't care. There is no collective memory of war and the need for a military.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Canada has never had a well equiped military.

That's not true. We were pretty stacked at the end of WW2.

However my post was more aimed at why there is no outcry over the billions of dollars wasted and nothing to show for it.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

That's not true. We were pretty stacked at the end of WW2.

However my post was more aimed at why there is no outcry over the billions of dollars wasted and nothing to show for it.

At the start of the war they were less than "stacked"........

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

At the start of the war they were less than "stacked"........

Yep, fully aware. My original comment was directed to yours saying we've never had a well equiped military which is certainly not the case.

We did at one point, however our government has allowed that to erode well past unacceptable levels ever since.

[Zulu29]

I really believe that the axe is going to fall on one of the branches of the CF and they will be reduced to an auxiliary force. So no fighter jets if it's the airforce or no new destroyers if it's the navy. Army is safe. Just a glorified coast guard or an Air Force that has transport aircraft and search and rescue.

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't believe that will ever happen, it would effect many security and ally contracts.

We are still expected to pull some weight in these groups.

In who killed the Canadian Military by JL Granastein, he talked about a meeting between a newly elected Prime Minister and the President of the United States where it was plainly stated that one day, maybe not this day, The American Government would stop being as generous with a Canadian Government that's not holding up their end of the bargin in terms of Military Strength and start making demands on the Canadian Government. The feeling was that the Canadian Government was trying to balance their budget on the backs of the American government by not paying their fair share in the defense of the continent and in terms of Nato requirements.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't believe that will ever happen, it would effect many security and ally contracts.

We are still expected to pull some weight in these groups.

In who killed the Canadian Military by JL Granastein, he talked about a meeting between a newly elected Prime Minister and the President of the United States where it was plainly stated that one day, maybe not this day, The American Government would stop being as generous with a Canadian Government that's not holding up their end of the bargin in terms of Military Strength and start making demands on the Canadian Government. The feeling was that the Canadian Government was trying to balance their budget on the backs of the American government by not paying their fair share in the defense of the continent and in terms of Nato requirements.

I'd really like to read that book, sounds interesting. I just don't see how the CF can come back from the brink. I don't think there is much appetite from the public or politicians to pay the cost of what is required to make the CF relevant again. Look at all the wasted money already on procurement gone wrong.

Every time I hear about the military getting this or that I am happy but then quickly disappointed when it gets bogged down in red tape or cancelled over a political score to settle. The men and women in the CF deserve the best kit and equipment there is in order to do their jobs as safe and effective as possible. I honestly wouldn't expect them to go to battle on behalf of their country when their government can't supply them with the proper tools but I'm so thankful they do.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Yep, fully aware. My original comment was directed to yours saying we've never had a well equiped military which is certainly not the case.

We did at one point, however our government has allowed that to erode well past unacceptable levels ever since.

It could be argued that even at the end of WW2 we didn't have a well equiped military, when compared to our contemporaries, but we both know that is not the point of this thread.

Please accept my apology.

I still believe that until the Canadian public experiences a situation/event that draw upon or strains the military here on home soil, the funding of the military will never change.

[Igotnothing]

I thought this was an interesting article, although no real impact on our forces.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/wha...979845/+travis

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I still believe that until the Canadian public experiences a situation/event that draw upon or strains the military here on home soil, the funding of the military will never change.

Completley agree.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

I'd really like to read that book, sounds interesting. I just don't see how the CF can come back from the brink. I don't think there is much appetite from the public or politicians to pay the cost of what is required to make the CF relevant again. Look at all the wasted money already on procurement gone wrong.

Every time I hear about the military getting this or that I am happy but then quickly disappointed when it gets bogged down in red tape or cancelled over a political score to settle. The men and women in the CF deserve the best kit and equipment there is in order to do their jobs as safe and effective as possible. I honestly wouldn't expect them to go to battle on behalf of their country when their government can't supply them with the proper tools but I'm so thankful they do.

Its a good book, JLG is a very good historical writer, he wrote the history of the armed forces, who's war is it anyways (about Afghanistan) and who killed the Canadian Military. He is a bit right wing in terms of his concept of international duty. However he is an equal opportunity critic when it comes to the failure of our government to support the forces and in how they use them.

The book was published in 2006, so its a little out of date, but its a significant book from a very good smart writer.

[Bindair Dundat]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its a good book, JLG is a very good historical writer, he wrote the history of the armed forces, who's war is it anyways (about Afghanistan) and who killed the Canadian Military. He is a bit right wing in terms of his concept of international duty. However he is an equal opportunity critic when it comes to the failure of our government to support the forces and in how they use them.

The book was published in 2006, so its a little out of date, but its a significant book from a very good smart writer.

Have read all of Granatstein's work and I concur with your conclusion in this regard. His books are well stocked at the metropolitan libraries in the province and are WELL worth reading.

[Bindair Dundat]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The one versus 2 engines to me is a non issue, the reliability of jet fighter engines is through the charts. It also makes engine maintenance replacement easier and cheaper.

The typhoon is a very nice jet, but the F-35's command of airspace through data linking and through the glass cockpit and with the Stealth Capability means that the F-35 is designed to sneak up on an enemy and punch it in the starfish before they're aware of it.

At least that's the theory.

For our specific needs (interoperability with ADC/NORAD) we have no choice in the matter. It's the the F-35...period. It makes no sense to buy "cheap" airframes and get ass-raped upgrading the electronics suites so the planes can "talk" to Tinker, Elmendorf , Boulder.... and AWACS. This would be silly. Most civvies don't get it. We have been tied to the US teat since the early '60's

[Zulu29]

*bump*

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/f-35...ions-1.2614105

The report for selection of the new fighter jet is complete, in a few weeks hopefully we get an idea of what it'll be!

[jofillips]

I'd absolutley second cpt.crunchs recomendation of 'who killed the Canadian military'.
Blunt book that really rips into a few Canadian governments.

[Zulu29]

So read an article today saying HMCS Iroqouis has been pulled from service due to rust on the hull. Sounds like it may be decommissioned as it may be too expensive to fix. This leaves Canada with one active destroyer, the only ship able to lead a naval task force.

[undercoverbrother]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sea-...ment-1.2684036

The Conservative government has agreed to accept new helicopters to replace Canada's 50-year-old fleet of Sea Kings even though they don't meet a key requirement recommended for marine helicopters by Canada's air safety investigator, CBC News has learned.