Calgary Indoor Bike Park - Why Not?

[19Yzerman19]

My girlfriend and I were discussing this yesterday. Given how short the outdoor season is here, and given the fact that land and warehouse space shouldn't be too difficult to get ahold of in this city (no more than other major cities), why doesn't this exist? I mean as far as I know, there aren't even any indoor BMX facilities and there's one "skate park" taking up a measly 2500 sq ft. This boggles my mind.

As a quintessential example of what I'm talking about, Joyride 150 is an indoor park in Markham, ON. They're open all day on weekends and during the afternoon / evening throughout the week. Basically it operates like a ski hill - you can buy an annual pass, or just a day pass. They've got a bunch of different areas, and even a spin studio in there.




These features would not be that expensive to build or maintain. The operational cost wouldn't be absurd, either; I keep comparing this to a ski hill or COP, and it's not like you have to run a chairlift or groom snow. Insurance is obviously a thing.

Now, that place has 90,000 square feet, and it could be done on a smaller scale. I guess I just don't understand why this wouldn't be viable here. Look at the volume that bike shops are able to do. Surely a decent chunk of the huge number of people riding in the summer months would be interested in something like this. There's obviously opportunity for advertising partnerships with various industry participants, from local shops to, yknow, Trek bicycles or whatever.

What are the obstacles I'm missing here? Would it be so expensive to set up?

[macker]

Those are big buildings to keep running and the liability scares most investors away. Fish Creek will have an outdoor skills park / pump track in the next year or two http://cmbalink.com/bikepark/tag/pumptrack/ Also heard that the BFI landfill in Chaparral could be used to develop into a bike area. Not the same of course but bikers will use them.

People are finding different ways/bikes to extend the season. Ice spikers or fat tires have allowed many to ride every month of the year. Not the same type of riding but there is two wheel fun to be had in the winter.

Anything ever happen with the Aviva Calgary bike skills park
http://forums.mtbr.com/western-canad...rk-742639.html

[19Yzerman19]

First of all, fat bikes are a relatively recent phenomenon that could catch on or could be a fad. I know I have no particular desire to bike around in the snow in -15 weather. The Fish Creek park being outdoor is fine, but when it's feasible to ride outside, there are tons of other options. I guess my point is if you did an indoor facility, it would be literally the only option for a large group of people who participate in this sport. That has to be an attractive proposition.

As for keeping the building running, what needs doing? You need light, you need heat, and I guess you probably have some sort of food and beverage dispensary so there may or may not be those facilities. Other than that, maintenance seems minimal - repairs to wooden features aren't the toughest thing ever. I bet you'd get a lot of staff hours for free from enthusiasts and bike clubs.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

First of all, fat bikes are a relatively recent phenomenon that could catch on or could be a fad. I know I have no particular desire to bike around in the snow in -15 weather. The Fish Creek park being outdoor is fine, but when it's feasible to ride outside, there are tons of other options. I guess my point is if you did an indoor facility, it would be literally the only option for a large group of people who participate in this sport. That has to be an attractive proposition.

As for keeping the building running, what needs doing? You need light, you need heat, and I guess you probably have some sort of food and beverage dispensary so there may or may not be those facilities. Other than that, maintenance seems minimal - repairs to wooden features aren't the toughest thing ever. I bet you'd get a lot of staff hours for free from enthusiasts and bike clubs.

No offence, but if it is so easy, why don't you open one. It appears to be a passion for you.

[Coach]

Didn't they used to have The Source skatepark (which I assume could have been used for bikes as well) that shut down a few years ago?

[Hevishot]

Allschool, Source indoor skate park and 403 were all indoor parks from my childhood. If I remember the liability insurance kills them. Once little Johnnys mom tries to sue because her "star" athlete crashes his brains out the premiums double choking them out of existance. In the past we have run into the same thing every few years at the MX track in Calgary when some squid rides the pro track and ends up going to the hospital because he was riding over his head.
Atleast at the MX track there are enough memberships sold to cover the increasing premium every year. With a skatepark it would be hard to get someone to fork over almost 600 bucks for a year long membership especially when the terrain never changes.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

First of all, fat bikes are a relatively recent phenomenon that could catch on or could be a fad. I know I have no particular desire to bike around in the snow in -15 weather. The Fish Creek park being outdoor is fine, but when it's feasible to ride outside, there are tons of other options. I guess my point is if you did an indoor facility, it would be literally the only option for a large group of people who participate in this sport. That has to be an attractive proposition.

As for keeping the building running, what needs doing? You need light, you need heat, and I guess you probably have some sort of food and beverage dispensary so there may or may not be those facilities. Other than that, maintenance seems minimal - repairs to wooden features aren't the toughest thing ever. I bet you'd get a lot of staff hours for free from enthusiasts and bike clubs.

I think you're way underestimating what goes into maintaining a business/building like this.
A 90,000 sqft. building is going to to pretty darn expensive to heat, light, and maintain.

As for maintenance on the features, sure I suppose that wouldn't be the most expensive thing in the workd, but that depends on the use/abuse they get, and I think banking on getting free labour from bike clubs, etc. is a good way to run yourself out of business.

I'm not saying that it's not feasible, I'm just saying that there's a lot more to it than you seem to think.

But if you opened one up, I'd probably come check it out.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by macker

Those are big buildings to keep running and the liability scares most investors away. Fish Creek will have an outdoor skills park / pump track in the next year or two http://cmbalink.com/bikepark/tag/pumptrack/ Also heard that the BFI landfill in Chaparral could be used to develop into a bike area. Not the same of course but bikers will use them.

People are finding different ways/bikes to extend the season. Ice spikers or fat tires have allowed many to ride every month of the year. Not the same type of riding but there is two wheel fun to be had in the winter.

Anything ever happen with the Aviva Calgary bike skills park
http://forums.mtbr.com/western-canad...rk-742639.html

How does the cost for liability differ in Markham ON vs Calgary? I would have to think given population and income, Calgary should support it (*assumption: popularity is just as good in Calgary for this as Markham)....

I would have to think this type of venue would appease more of a returning crowd then, say, trampoline or indoor skydiving. The aformentioned probably is better for for a population of another magnitude....

[sun]

Wow, that looks amazing. Used to ride BMX and that place would be heaven in the winter. We would shovel snow off skateparks to ride.

Apparently an indoor skatepark is not an easy thing to make money off of. Warehouses are expensive, liability costs, and by excluding skateboarding you miss out on a lot of income.

Aside from the passes, you could make money with advertisements, pro shop, food, etc.

IIRC the source skatepark didn't allow bikes. Or it did, but only certain days.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

How does the cost for liability differ in Markham ON vs Calgary? I would have to think given population and income, Calgary should support it (*assumption: popularity is just as good in Calgary for this as Markham)....

I would have to think this type of venue would appease more of a returning crowd then, say, trampoline or indoor skydiving. The aformentioned probably is better for for a population of another magnitude....

People in Markham have less valuable brainmatter to lose.

[19Yzerman19]

I think you pretty much have to either have a separated area for skating, or have it be skate only on thursdays, or something. You can't have people skating in the same space as the mountain bikes. Obviously the features are totally different, but it's also asking for some skater to get destroyed by a guy on a bike. Having a separated area just costs floor space - it works if you have something the size of the Joyride park I posted, but then you have to weigh the benefits of having some skating features against, say, a spin studio or something.

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

No offence, but if it is so easy, why don't you open one. It appears to be a passion for you.

If it was feasible I would absolutely consider doing it. Biking isn't my passion, skiing is, but this just seems to be such a huge hole waiting to be filled. It seems to me that the two main obstacles here are cost of warehouse space (which might be something that could be mitigated; I don't know the commercial real estate market) and cost of insurance.

assumption: popularity is just as good in Calgary for this as Markham

More so, I'd think... We have an actual mountain range driving the popularity of mountain biking. That said, the GTO has a much larger population obviously so that probably offsets.

Aside from the passes, you could make money with advertisements, pro shop, food, etc.

And equipment rentals, though the issue there is that the cost of the equipment is super high so the deposit might put people off.

I think you're way underestimating what goes into maintaining a business/building like this.
A 90,000 sqft. building is going to to pretty darn expensive to heat, light, and maintain.

I may be. But it seems to me that the cost is going to be mainly a) land (i.e. warehouse rent), and b) insurance. Heating costs depend on the structure itself, not just the space. But again, their 90,000sq ft park is one example, you could it with half that much space.

[bizaro86]

Interesting idea.

Let's say you rent a 90,000 square foot building in an industrial area. We could ask in the commercial property thread, but I bet $10 per square foot per year is about right for rent. Add another $2 per square foot for operating costs (heat/electricity) and you have $12*90,000= 1.08 million

Figure on being open 5 hours on weekdays and 12 on weekends is 49 hours *52 weeks = 2548 hours. You probably need at least three people on staff any time its open for cleaning/maintenance/selling tickets/checking tickets/calling an ambulance for someone who hurts themselves. Figure that costs $15 per hour with wages/cpp/etc.
2548*3*15 = 115,000.


Add those together and you're around 1.2 million per year in costs. So you need to sell about 2000 people an annual pass for $600 to break even on extremely conservative costs, and that's before you pay anything for liability insurance. Maybe you could cover the missing costs selling day passes and running birthday parties.

You still need to convince one out of every 650 people in the whole metro area (including babies and the elderly) that they need an annual pass to an indoor bike park, which seems like a stretch to me. But maybe I'm underestimating how many people would be interested in buying one because I wouldn't be interested in buying one.

It sounds like a cool thing for a city to have though, so if you think it would work why not look into it? Spitball ideas are how many really neat businesses get going, and while the operating costs would be high it probably wouldn't take much money to start, since equipment would be minimal. I would try and see if you could sublease some of the space ahead of time (snack bar, bike sales/repair shop) to help cover your costs.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

I may be. But it seems to me that the cost is going to be mainly a) land (i.e. warehouse rent), and b) insurance. Heating costs depend on the structure itself, not just the space. But again, their 90,000sq ft park is one example, you could it with half that much space.

If you're seriously considering this I would focus on (b). Talk to 3 or 4 good commercial insurance brokers. This is the key factor, in whether it will work, so I wouldn't spend a bunch of time trying to find the perfect space untll you understand the cost/availability of insurance.

[Locke]

Well, to get a building that big you'd have to head out to the industrial park boonies.

Theres something hilariously ironic about a bunch of cyclists driving for an hour to go ride their bikes indoors.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

It sounds like a cool thing for a city to have though, so if you think it would work why not look into it? Spitball ideas are how many really neat businesses get going

I guess talking about it here is sort of kicking it around. I think I will look into it. It's really a matter of figuring out the startup costs as much as anything.

Let's say you rent a 90,000 square foot building in an industrial area. We could ask in the commercial property thread, but I bet $10 per square foot per year is about right for rent. Add another $2 per square foot for operating costs (heat/electricity) and you have $12*90,000= 1.08 million

Is this a conservative figure per square foot for a large empty space like this? Like I say I don't know the comm real estate market. Are there areas in the city where you could get it for $6 per sq foot, for example? Not saying you know, but if someone has any experience with it I'm curious. Also worth noting that if you drop it to, say, 50,000 square feet (still a lot), you cut that cost significantly. At $6psf + $2 op cost x 50,000 you're looking at $400k. If some of these variables are in fact variable it becomes a lot more feasible in a hurry, seems to me.

Figure on being open 5 hours on weekdays and 12 on weekends is 49 hours *52 weeks = 2548 hours. You probably need at least three people on staff any time its open for cleaning/maintenance/selling tickets/checking tickets/calling an ambulance for someone who hurts themselves. Figure that costs $15 per hour with wages/cpp/etc.
2548*3*15 = 115,000.

This does sound fairly conservative. It's elastic depending on what else you want to use the space for. Let's say you offered mountain bike lessons to kids? More staff, potentially more revenue. If you've got a shop, you've probably got a tech and one or two people selling gear, same deal.

Maybe you could cover the missing costs selling day passes and running birthday parties.

Ski resort management 101 suggests that of actual lift revenue, the vast majority comes from day tickets. Season pass revenue is essentially an initial injection of capital to get the place up and running at the start of the season. Obviously something like this would run year round, it's a different model with a different base of consumers... but I'm not 100% sure that the day ticket purchases would be considered a bonus; might well be a big chunk of overall revenue.

But maybe I'm underestimating how many people would be interested in buying one because I wouldn't be interested in buying one.

500 passes doesn't sound at all out of the question to me. Also note that there isn't anything like this in surrounding communities - it'd probably pull in some enthusiasts from Cochrane, Strathmore, Okotoks, etc. At the very least you'd get weekenders.

I would try and see if you could sublease some of the space ahead of time (snack bar, bike sales/repair shop) to help cover your costs.

This of course assumes you'd sublet it. I would think subletting the shop wouldn't be a bad call, since somewhere like Bowcycle or Bike Shop obviously have the experienced staff who are probably twiddling their thumbs for the most part in the winter months. Not to mention there's lots of cross-marketing potential there.

But I can see just operating the food, I feel like that'd be a solid cash cow; there's nothing but margin on sport drinks and protein shakes.

Originally Posted by Locke

Theres something hilariously ironic about a bunch of cyclists driving for an hour to go ride their bikes indoors.

Why, they drive for more than that to go ride them in Fernie or Canmore or Kananaskis or whatever. Or hell, COP is a decent trek for a fair number of people.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Is this a conservative figure per square foot for a large empty space like this? Like I say I don't know the comm real estate market. Are there areas in the city where you could get it for $6 per sq foot, for example? Not saying you know, but if someone has any experience with it I'm curious. Also worth noting that if you drop it to, say, 50,000 square feet (still a lot), you cut that cost significantly. At $6psf + $2 op cost x 50,000 you're looking at $400k. If some of these variables are in fact variable it becomes a lot more feasible in a hurry, seems to me.

I would say $10+$2 is as low as you could expect to get. I'm not an industrial space guy, but I think if you wanted a reasonable estimate I'd probably use $12+3.50 per square foot.

Maybe someone with better info could chime in, but I almost guarantee there isn't any empty space anywhere near the city at $6psf.

I was trying to make the numbers in my previous post as good as I thought was reasonably possible, which is why I kept the hours relatively short and the staff numbers/pay relatively low. You'd probably want one 'manager' type person on duty at a higher pay grade.

I'd also be curious about the seasonality of the business. Would you expect to get many customers during the summer, when people can go to COP/mountains?

I hadn't considered rentals, you'd probably need to buy an assortment of bikes to make rentals available, which would increase your upfront cost. Might be able to get a financing deal on them if you're going to buy bikes in bulk.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Why, they drive for more than that to go ride them in Fernie or Canmore or Kananaskis or whatever. Or hell, COP is a decent trek for a fair number of people.

I've quoted myself, just in case it was unclear.

Originally Posted by Locke

Well, to get a building that big you'd have to head out to the industrial park boonies.

Theres something hilariously ironic about a bunch of cyclists driving for an hour to go ride their bikes indoors.

[burn_this_city]

There's a reason these places don't exist, they are horrible money pits. I'll be surprised if the place in Ontario is still around in 5 years.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I would say $10+$2 is as low as you could expect to get. I'm not an industrial space guy, but I think if you wanted a reasonable estimate I'd probably use $12+3.50 per square foot.

Yeah, see I just don't know. I mean browsing around here's an ad for 57,000 sq feet of space at $6.25psf, in a pretty solid location near Memorial...
http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/17518...NE-Calgary-AB/

I have no idea what that looks like or if it would be appropriate at all or if other similar spaces exist for comparable rates or what.

There was a half pipe that skate boarders and bmx-ers used in Nanaimo.

But I'm pretty sure it was a front for dealing drugs to the kids. That's where the money.