Flames to announce plans to announce arena plans in the... future...

[Southside]

World class cities need world class facilities. Calgary claims to be, wants to be world class. Edmonton claims, wants the same. Alberta claims to have world class cities and infrastructure. Yet our arenas are the armpit and ashhole of the NHL. The need is real and as for public funds, yes all levels of government.

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by RM14

My intermission strategy:
- Leave section 220 and, hike up to the nosebleeds to use the no line washrooms.

I really hope more people from the second bowl don't start doing this, haha. While the view from the third bowl isn't the best, the quick washrooms are great.

[dammage79]

It's a damned bloody shame that Edmonton get a world class facility even though it's not even close to what anyone would call world class in terms of cities. Gawd I hate that place.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by shutout

For the owners a new building is a clear win from a business advantage.
Especially if you build an entertainment district in the area as well.
Have a new arena and a new stadium that are in the same west village location.
Both venues are equally situated to the train, transit, and parkades that will go in to handle parking.

But the crown jewel would be having an entertainment district with a dozen different bars and restaurants that would handle all of the pregame and post game requirements of the fans. And would be trendy and convenient enough for people to go to on weekends and after work even when there is no games going on. That is before you even factor in the potential to build in convention space in the area as well.

Public money for the project will be for more than a new hockey arena. It will be for developing a whole area that will generate jobs and taxes.

But it just doesn't really end up being a boon for the public. Like someone earlier said, it doesn't give people new money to spend, they just spend it in a different area of the city.

The "entertainment district" reasoning has been used before, but I just don't seeing them creating a new mini-17th that has any sort of health outside of gamedays.

The Arena is for the Flames to maximize profits, lets be honest about it. They're going to want our money to do it.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Whenever people talk about the jobs an arena can create. they do realize that 90% of those jobs are low paying jobs, many at minimum wage? Its not like we're talking solid careers here. Using jobs, for this market especially, is a weird one. Calgary has tons of jobs, and within trades tons of jobs that can't be filled. If we were struggling to have jobs thats one thing, but whatever jobs are created by a new arena are mostly irrelevant.

The reality is tax dollars are finite and wants are seemingly unlimited. Yeah I'd love a new arena, I just don't think it deserves priority over the tons of infrastucture projects we need. Likewise, healthcare costs are about to skyrocket as the boomers retire. An arena is a vanity project when its taxpayers footing the bill, not a need. All that comes of it is that owners can charge more for tickets at the new building, of which there will be fewer seats than the current one so that there can be more luxury boxes. The average taxpayer almost never gets any real benefit out of a new arena, one they might spend 2 or 3 nights a year at, maybe. Spending less time in the bathroom or waiting for beer sounds nice, but nice enough to see your taxes go up? Likely not.

[Southside]

Double post

[chalms04]

Originally Posted by DOOM

I really hope more people from the second bowl don't start doing this, haha. While the view from the third bowl isn't the best, the quick washrooms are great.

That and the chance to take a leak next to Peter Maher or any number of dignitaries from the press box.

[Tinordi]

There is no net benefit to the public for paying for this. Either the owners who will see the gain pay for it, or enjoy the long bathroom lineups.

That is THE reason the arena has been delayed. There is no public money coming, not from the province, not from the city, not from the feds. They're going to wait it out until the next provincial election cycle would be my bet.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Whenever people talk about the jobs an arena can create. they do realize that 90% of those jobs are low paying jobs, many at minimum wage? Its not like we're talking solid careers here. Using jobs, for this market especially, is a weird one. Calgary has tons of jobs, and within trades tons of jobs that can't be filled. If we were struggling to have jobs thats one thing, but whatever jobs are created by a new arena are mostly irrelevant.

The reality is tax dollars are finite and wants are seemingly unlimited. Yeah I'd love a new arena, I just don't think it deserves priority over the tons of infrastucture projects we need. Likewise, healthcare costs are about to skyrocket as the boomers retire. An arena is a vanity project when its taxpayers footing the bill, not a need. All that comes of it is that owners can charge more for tickets at the new building, of which there will be fewer seats than the current one so that there can be more luxury boxes. The average taxpayer almost never gets any real benefit out of a new arena, one they might spend 2 or 3 nights a year at, maybe. Spending less time in the bathroom or waiting for beer sounds nice, but nice enough to see your taxes go up? Likely not.

In a province with relatively full employment what does a new job mean? It means a job for someone outside of the province. Do you think that Alberta taxpayers should value jobs for people outside of Alberta above other critical infrastructure priorities like more transit, health care, or oh I don't money back in your pocket?

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

There is no net benefit to the public for paying for this. Either the owners who will see the gain pay for it, or enjoy the long bathroom lineups.

That is THE reason the arena has been delayed. There is no public money coming, not from the province, not from the city, not from the feds. They're going to wait it out until the next provincial election cycle would be my bet.

Edmonton didn't get any provincial funds (officially) though. So province could easily tell Calgary to go pound sand.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Southside

World class cities need world class facilities. Calgary claims to be, wants to be world class. Edmonton claims, wants the same. Alberta claims to have world class cities and infrastructure. Yet our areas are the armpit and ashhole of the NHL. The need is real and as for public funds, yes all levels of government.

The first rule of world class cities is that they never call themselves "world class cities."

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Edmonton didn't get any provincial funds (officially) though. So province could easily tell Calgary to go pound sand.

And Edmonton has given their infrastructure allotment to it, not a new fund. Nenshi has stated there won't be any city money for it, and I hope he stands firm.

I guess we'll see the true colours of ownership if they start threatening the fanbase with moves if they aren't given money. I hope it doesn't go that route.

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by nik-

Nenshi has stated there won't be any city money for it, and I hope he stands firm.

One council vote. People seem to forget that.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Tyler

One council vote. People seem to forget that.

Well our council just went more conservative, so we'll see.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by nik-

And Edmonton has given their infrastructure allotment to it, not a new fund. Nenshi has stated there won't be any city money for it, and I hope he stands firm.

I guess we'll see the true colours of ownership if they start threatening the fanbase with moves if they aren't given money. I hope it doesn't go that route.

Flames will get public money one way or another. They may not have the move city (LA) leverage like NFL teams got, but they can still choose to move to Seattle or Quebec City (or Toronto) as a threat. Plus could use the "we've stuck around when it was tough" card. They could make this turn ugly politically.

If the city wants to have a top tier professional sports team, they're gonna have to pay their share for a new building. No owner is going to pay for everything, even though they could. That's stupid when it's been proven over and over again that you can get public funds.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by nik-

I hope it doesn't go that route.

The Flames will not be able to operate another full decade in the Dome so something will have to happen in the coming years. Ultimately if the City doesn't cooperate the Flames owners would be forced to look at alternative cities. That's just the way it is. Personally I don't think it ever comes to that but you can never say never as a lot can change in 5 years.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

City absolutely gets benefit from this type of project and structure, and no it hasn't been de-bunked. People on either side of the argument can come up with lots of arguments to support their case, many on both sides have merit, but there has never been anything close to a complete de-bunking as you put it.

What is very much debatable though is the amount of benefit the city will get, and how to monitise that. I won't pretend to know that answer, but I think it will be fairly easy to figure out, and is the reason why tax payers will end up spending some money on the new rink, because the government will see some form of value in having these facilities in the province.

Anything objective I have read pretty convincingly debunks public financing of stadiums as having very little economic benefit, and is generally considered to be about the poorest investment a government can make with its public funds. If you can find something that makes a convincing case otherwise, feel free to share.

I do think there are some intangible benefits to having a sports team though, and the fact is Calgary has to compete with other cities that do benefit from public financing, so in some ways it is probably a bit of a necessary evil if you want to keep a competitive team. It's too bad though that all the levels of government can't get together and agree to get out of this business.

It really doesn't pass the "smell test" that a team can have payrolls approaching 100 million/year, but can't finance a 500 million dollar asset. To really over-simplify things: What's a mortgage on a 500 million stadium? 30-40 million per year? Seems like the obvious answer is to pay players less and pay for your own damn building? It seems that all public financing does is inflate salaries. And directing money to player's salaries is not really great for a city when the players who are making that money likely end up spending the bulk of it elsewhere over the course of their lifetime.

But Calgary is not a vacuum and they probably just have to suck it up and go along with the rest of the continent.

[shutout]

My view of public funds is that it is repaid over a period of time through a user fee tax. Then the people that don't want to go and watch hockey, lacrosse, football, soccer, basketball, or concerts wont be paying for it. If there is a surcharge fee for the restaurants and bars as well as for the parking and the sports venue tickets than it all adds up.

If you had 20K for the Flames, 35K for the Stamps, and 8K for the Hitmen and all you did was charge $1 extra per game you would be generating $1.5M a year. Make it a more realistic tax of $5 per ticket and that is $7M a year. A $5 luxury tax on parking would be about a $1M a year. That is just those main sports. You would be looking at $1.5M in tax for the concerts that would come in.

Over a ten year period that you are looking to have the public money paid back through the luxury tax you would bring in about $1B. That is without charging any sort of luxury tax on the food and alcohol that is served at the games and in the bars and restaurants in the entertainment district.

Getting public money should not be an issue to getting this built. Its just in how you structure it. Along with the fact that non users are going to have to contribute as well. I dont go to the libraries in the city but my taxes pay for them. I dont use the swimming pools in the city but my taxes pay for them. At some point in time there is a public cost for improving your city. Just what is the value of that cost.

[The Yen Man]

I'm all for not publically funding any of the arena, but if the city continues spending on stupid stuff like that blue loop thing near the airport, I'd honestly rather have money for those types of projects going towards a state of the art arena instead. At least with an awesome looking arena, there's something to brag about for Calgary. The blue loop is just embarrassing.

[nik-]

The problem with a ticket surcharge, at least in Edmonton's case, is that the money is borrowed from the city. I'm guessing Edmonton doesn't just have 125 million dollars sitting in a bank account that they can toss over to Katz to build the arena and wait the 25 years it takes for it to get repaid.

They have to borrow it, increasing the city debt, which eventually will trickle down to the taxbase paying for super rich people maximizing their profits.

If the Flames want to take a loan for the cost from a financial institution, and then tack on a ticket surcharge to repay that ... I'm all for it and have no qualms about the extra charge on my tickets.