"Got land? Thank an Indian."

[fatso]

Originally Posted by superfarmer

Grab a map. Look at the siksika nation. Pretty much pristine ranch and farm land that is completely squandered. Look at the Blood Reserve same thing. But you will find examples to counter me I'm sure, or call me racist

To be fair though, you could hardly be objective in any such assessment given your agricultural skills are clearly... super.

[superfarmer]

Originally Posted by fatso

To be fair though, you could hardly be objective in any such assessment given your agricultural skills are clearly... super.

Stole the name from Poets, a Hip song. I do farm and some years I'm super.... When it rains

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Are you sure it's us that's ignoring the truth? I'm guessing your family didn't have any of the disadvantages of being taken from their homes and abused by agents of the state for decades, or am I off here?

As for free housing, why don't you do a little more "truth-searching" and look into where reserves are placed and the process that goes into the building of reserve housing.

Rube not to pick on you specifically, but this seems to be a common theme in Aboriginal threads where common retorts are "do a little more research". You sound a lot like an anti-vaxxer right now.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Rube not to pick on you specifically, but this seems to be a common theme in Aboriginal threads where common retorts are "do a little more research". You sound a lot like an anti-vaxxer right now.

Except that I'm not the one making ignorant and bigoted claims. Is any of what I said regarding residential schools, reserve housing codes, or systemic inequality inaccurate? The baseless claims seem to be coming from a few individuals who are making generic claims about a wide variety of peoples by extrapolating the negative actions of a few and removing any of the social or historical context surrounding this actions.

So maybe evaluate the arguments again and then judge which has more in common with unverifiable pseudoscience.

[SebC]

The problem with reaffirming/strengthening treaty rights as a means of progress is that it is based on the supposition that one can fight inequality and discrimination with more inequality and discrimination.

[Minnie]

Without getting into the rest of what's going on in this thread, just let the kid wear it. It's just a silly hoodie, FFS. Tons of other kids wear hoodies with stuff written all over it - who cares?

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Except that I'm not the one making ignorant and bigoted claims. Is any of what I said regarding residential schools, reserve housing codes, or systemic inequality inaccurate? The baseless claims seem to be coming from a few individuals who are making generic claims about a wide variety of peoples by extrapolating the negative actions of a few and removing any of the social or historical context surrounding this actions.

So maybe evaluate the arguments again and then judge which has more in common with unverifiable pseudoscience.

Again, you've thrown out statements such as systemic racism, agents of the state, continuing to trample treaty rights - with almost no specific examples of this happening in your argument.

I'm trying to evaluate your claims, but you have nothing substantive that you've presented for review.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

I wanted to wait a bit and let people weigh in so I didn't bias the thread with my opinion in the initial post.. but I think the sweater is out of line. There is no reason for her to wear that other than to provoke people. If you want to raise awareness, do it in a tasteful and respectful manner. If my kid was in her class I wouldn't raise a stink about it, I wouldn't even complain. But I definitely wouldn't agree with it.

What would happen if I sent my kid to school with a t-shirt directed towards natives that said "Got Money? Thank a white man!"

edit: ok first he would be called sexist because it should be a White Person or Man/Woman, but after that, a racist!

That comes with the insinuation that the natives got the money as a hand out. That's insulting and may be or may not be true but if you got land in Canada, it came from the natives and that is the truth.

Doing things in a tasteful and respectful manner has gotten the natives no where, so now a little push back happens and all the bigots come out to play.

[The Fonz]

Why is this always limited to farmers? Because they have more land than the rest of us?

They also have more debt. The vast majority of farmers today have purchased the vast majority of their acres, for incredibly large sums of money. I can remember at 19 years old, friends of mine buying sections of land for upwards of $1,000,000. I work in agriculture and have farmers in my office every day, and it is in no way out of the ordinary to be witness to +$5,000,000 land purchases. Who is "giving" that land to them?

Own a business? Thank an Indian.
Own a house? Thank an Indian.
Have a driveway? Thank an Indian.
Live in Calgary? Thank an Indian.

After all, these things are all on their land. You may not have as much of it as a farmer, but that is irrelevant, as you didn't pay as much for it either.

If you stole the land out from under an Indian... thank them.
If you purchased the land, be it a farm, a business lot, an acreage, or a home lot, you don't need to thank anyone.

[superfarmer]

Tasteful and respectful is exactly what I think when I hear "native protesters"

[superfarmer]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

Why is this always limited to farmers? Because they have more land than the rest of us?

They also have more debt. The vast majority of farmers today have purchased the vast majority of their acres, for incredibly large sums of money. I can remember at 19 years old, friends of mine buying sections of land for upwards of $1,000,000. I work in agriculture and have farmers in my office every day, and it is in no way out of the ordinary to be witness to +$5,000,000 land purchases. Who is "giving" that land to them?

Own a business? Thank an Indian.
Own a house? Thank an Indian.
Have a driveway? Thank an Indian.
Live in Calgary? Thank an Indian.

After all, these things are all on their land. You may not have as much of it as a farmer, but that is irrelevant, as you didn't pay as much for it either.

If you stole the land out from under an Indian... thank them.
If you purchased the land, be it a farm, a business lot, an acreage, or a home lot, you don't need to thank anyone.

Out of thanks. Well said

[Northendzone]

Please feel free to thank my ancestors for firewater.

[Red Slinger]

I'm by no means an expert on Aboriginal rights. I always struggled with the issue when I was in Canada and I'm experiencing the same thing in Australia. At the heart of this debate, IMO, is racism.

Racism generally implies:

1. a belief involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

In order to remove systematic racism there has to be, at it's core, an understanding that there is no inherent superiority among races, that all races are treated equally under the law and then as a result, eventually, the hatred or intolerance of another race or races would eventually fade (one would hope).

I think most non-idiotic people believe that the white race isn't naturally superior to the aboriginals and that we don't have the right to rule them. I would suggest that the large majority of Canadians fall into the category of "non-idiot". Also, while I could be mistaken, it seems like the government of Canada has come a long way to remove the indoctrinated discrimination from the system, although I don't think anyone would argue that task is complete. It seems that most of the unequal treatment of natives in Canada seems to originate from the natives themselves, or more accurately, it's a natural echo of the reservation system that was put in place. Most native leaders seem to encourage their people to stay on the reserves. I can understand why they would want to encourage this: in order to keep their populations and culture in tact. My understanding is that natives get a significantly reduced government payout if they leave the reserves to join "mainstream" Canadian society, although I haven't looked into it to verify. Either way, this seems to encourage the very notions of "seperate" and "different" which is a short stroll to "unequal". Obviously, there is also an issue of serious corruption on many reserves.

A lot of people talk about "the native issue" but I don't recall seeing any concrete suggestions for how to actually improve the situation. Usually, the responses to these issues are pseudo-racist jokey comments or glib holier-than-thou white man devil retorts. I don't think this particular hoodie helps the conversation either. So, for those of you that are more educated in this issue than me, what would you suggest?

I just don't see an end in sight.

[Coys1882]

Who did the Indians get it from? When did ownership start? Did they take it from someone? Buy it? What if they wiped out an ethnic group prior to Euros coming over? Human history is full of people gaining land and losing it - happened in Germany, France, England - why not here?

It's done - move on. Tear up the treaties, end the corruption, neglect, abuse, poverty and bigotry. Assimilate.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

Assimilate.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

Who did the Indians get it from? When did ownership start? Did they take it from someone? Buy it? What if they wiped out an ethnic group prior to Euros coming over? Human history is full of people gaining land and losing it - happened in Germany, France, England - why not here?

It's done - move on. Tear up the treaties, end the corruption, neglect, abuse, poverty and bigotry. Assimilate.

While I don't agree with tearing up the treaties, and the finality you have to your solution, I do agree with the first part.

What the solution is, I don't know. I know both parties need to do better. The government needs to resolve treaty disputes, especially when it comes to environmental problems, instead of just sweeping the discussion under the rug, and righting wrongs that in some cases, didn't happen that long ago. They signed these treaties, they need to honor them, or renegotiate them in a way that is fair, instead of allowing the rules to be bent and broken and not taking the concerns seriously.

And the native community has to start taking more responsibility for it's own situation. It's no secret they have many advantages afforded to them that are there if they want to take them. Also, for far too many, the crimes and problems of the past seem to be a reason to do nothing now. Like you wrote in the first part, societies and cultures all over the world have had stuff like this happen to them. There comes a time to take your situation into your own hands no matter what happened to you. Many displaced and wronged cultures came here to make a better life. Their situation is no different.

Both sides can do better, and both sides need to do better.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

Why is this always limited to farmers? Because they have more land than the rest of us?

They also have more debt. The vast majority of farmers today have purchased the vast majority of their acres, for incredibly large sums of money. I can remember at 19 years old, friends of mine buying sections of land for upwards of $1,000,000. I work in agriculture and have farmers in my office every day, and it is in no way out of the ordinary to be witness to +$5,000,000 land purchases. Who is "giving" that land to them?

Own a business? Thank an Indian.
Own a house? Thank an Indian.
Have a driveway? Thank an Indian.
Live in Calgary? Thank an Indian.

After all, these things are all on their land. You may not have as much of it as a farmer, but that is irrelevant, as you didn't pay as much for it either.

If you stole the land out from under an Indian... thank them.
If you purchased the land, be it a farm, a business lot, an acreage, or a home lot, you don't need to thank anyone.

Just re-read this thread and realized nobody pointed fingers at the farmers.

So now I'm a little embarrassed about my above rant. Apologies.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Daradon

While I don't agree with tearing up the treaties, and the finality you have to your solution, I do agree with the first part.

What the solution is, I don't know. I know both parties need to do better. The government needs to resolve treaty disputes, especially when it comes to environmental problems, instead of just sweeping the discussion under the rug, and righting wrongs that in some cases, didn't happen that long ago. They signed these treaties, they need to honor them, or renegotiate them in a way that is fair, instead of allowing the rules to be bent and broken and not taking the concerns seriously.

I don't see renegotation as a solution. We'd just be replacing one set of inequalities with another.

I still think the wheat board is a good analogy. Should the government have the right to end the wheat board, if it has been previously agreed that the wheat board can only be disbanded with consent? I think the government should have that right. The right of society as a whole to make democratic changes trumps the contract.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Got life expectancy greater than 40? Thank a white man.

Really?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Again, you've thrown out statements such as systemic racism, agents of the state, continuing to trample treaty rights - with almost no specific examples of this happening in your argument.

I'm trying to evaluate your claims, but you have nothing substantive that you've presented for review.

Well I guess I just thought that anyone with even a cursory knowledge of Canadian history would have some idea of what I'm getting at, but let's just start with systemic inequality/violence and neglect by the state:

- Residential schools
- Highway of Tears
- The Pickton case where VPD/RCMP did dick all to act when the majority of women being killed were aboriginal
- Saskatchewan RCMP practices (numerous)

Those are four right off the top of my head. Do I need to go into things like Oka as well?