[Trade] Oilers trade Smid and Olivier Roy to Flames for Horak and Brossoit

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

I told them to educate themselves on my opinion. As in to simply try to understand my opinion before slamming me. That's all I meant.

Advanced stats not relevant? They certainly are discussion worthy. I didn't see say it was the be all end all. I simply used it to reinforce an opinion. Doesn't mean I'm right, just saying that opinion has some validity and it is worthy of consideration. Most refused to do that. If the evidence was so irrelevant than it should be quite easy to refute them. Only one guy even tried and everyone else simply decided to call me a troll. The one guy who tried "thanked" my post, he obviously didn't think I was being over the top in the discussion.

You're hilarious, Kevin Lowe. Please don't ever change.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by the2bears

I remember you offering up the existence of evidence, but being too lazy to provide it. If you expect others to do your Googling, then perhaps it is you who is not cut out for this "internet" thing.

I am actually the only person in this discussion that has even attempted to bring in any kind of evidence beyond our own personal opinions.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

If Smid is soooo much more than that, how come not one team was willing to give up a legit NHL player, or a strong prospect to acquire him? Were the Flames the only team in the world that have scouted Smid correctly? Are the Flames the only team in the NHL that needed another NHL calibre defensemen?

Cap space.

Oilers needed to shed cap to sign Bryzgalov as quickly as possible. And as a bit of a preemptive strike there's a lot of posts describing just how little cap space the Oilers had at the time of the trade if you disagree with the previous sentence.

But now take a look at just how little cap space there actually is. Today there are 12 teams over the cap and having to utilize the LTIR to stay compliant. Some teams have already resigned themselves to the fact that they will be having cap penalties next year because of their bonus structures. There were very few teams that had the cap space to take on the 3M that was owed to Smid and remain compliant at the time. The couple that could included teams with internal budgets like Ottawa, Florida, Colorado and the Islanders. So now you're down to maybe 3 or 4 teams to deal with even before taking in consideration their needs. So even if you could convince Nashville to spend to the cap they aren't looking at another defenseman when they have Weber, Jones, Josi and Klein and need some help upfront.

They almost were forced to deal with Calgary and in doing so Calgary was able to lowball them on Smid. If this was an off-season trade when there was cap available they probably could have made out better. Unfortunately, or I guess fortunately, they wanted Bryzgalov that day.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

I am actually the only person in this discussion that has even attempted to bring in any kind of evidence beyond our own personal opinions.

Nope
All you are doing is cherry picking advanced stats to fit your personal opinions

[Patrick Bateman]

[QUOTE=Red John;4546734]

Perhaps the reason most think you are an Oilers fan is because you are so adept at spinning numbers. Smid makes ABOUT $3 million? Actually his cap hit is $3.5M. You're changing numbers now…sort of like Oilers fans who change the start date on their rebuild every year.

Sorry, i didn't even bother to look up the exact number I was going off memory. The correct cap hit you provided would mean 7 teams couldn't afford him... big difference! The wrong cap hit was really immaterial to the point I was trying to make, but thanks for finding another excuse to jump on me (that was irrelevant to the discussion).

And forget about the part where teams would have to include $1million of cap going the other way, just to fit your argument.

Not what I meant. The team acquiring him would have to send someone down to make a roster spot (i.e. send down an AHL player with cap hit of 700k - 1M. The actual cap hit of 3.5M is not really the net addition to the acquiring team if that makes sense.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

3.5 cap hit. Oilers didn't want any cap back
It was a salary dump the Flames were in position to take advantage of. This is all well known

So were 23 other teams. The Oilers could have easily trade an unnecessry part like Hemsky or Gagner if they were so inclined. Smid hardly "had to go", I just don't think they were on love with him.

[JiriHrdina]

What teams were in a position to send a player down that they felt wasn't contributing and/or wouldn't be exposed to waivers
Again you are changing things to fit your argument
Ain't going to fly here. Should've brought your big boy pants when you joined CP. Not bothering to look up a key fact isn't going to give you much credibility

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

So were 23 other teams. The Oilers could have easily trade an unnecessry part like Hemsky or Gagner if they were so inclined. Smid hardly "had to go", I just don't think they were on love with him.

Factually incorrect
Teams also don't want to be right up to the cap as it created issues. Few teams had the cap space and flexibility the flames had

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Nope
All you are doing is cherry picking advanced stats to fit your personal opinions

The only way that would be a credible statement is if you guys had found some stats that make Smid actually look good (ie. that would suggest I was picking and choosing to fit my opinion). I am open to whatever evidence you guys have as I am always willing to step back and consider objective analysis. I simply presented the information I normally use in my player evaluations (I like to read hockey prospectus' annual summaries and review CORSI ratings).

I'm not picking and choosing, I just generally find these to be educated and relevant information. If you have some contradictory information, I would legitimately be interested in hearing so I can re-think my opinion.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

What teams were in a position to send a player down that they felt wasn't contributing and/or wouldn't be exposed to waivers
Again you are changing things to fit your argument
Ain't going to fly here. Should've brought your big boy pants when you joined CP. Not bothering to look up a key fact isn't going to give you much credibility

Firstly, per capgeek, there are 23 teams with cap space above $3.5M. They could all technically have added Smid to their roster without removing any salary.

Secondly, most teams have a young player that eligible for waiver protocal that is not essential to their team that could be sent down. You could literally choose any team to find such a player ranging from 700k to a million. Teams manage to send down players and call them up on a daily basis.

I'm not changing any arguments here. Teams move non essential pieces up and down to the farm all the time.

[JiriHrdina]

My contradictory evidence is watching the game and judging the player on that.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

Smid makes about $3M. Assuming a new team would have to remove roughly a 1M player from their roster to acquire Smid, based on cap geek there are literally 6 teams who did not have the space to add Smid.

http://capgeek.com/payrolls

You're misguided. At the time of the trade and the difference between the players it's reasonable to say taking on Smid would cost roughly 2.5M in additional spending by the end of the year. This is counting what the Oilers had already spent on Smid and the removal of the bottom pairing 7th defenseman from the roster.

Now take a look at those teams and start listing those that could take on an additional 2.5M in spending and stay under the 64.3M cap.

If you're going to Capgeek and purely looking at a team's cap space you're wrong on two accounts. First is that it's been pro-rated now. Being able to take on 3M today is a lot different than taking it on months ago when the season was just starting. More importantly though is the LTIR. Sure Detroit could take on 7M today, but that's because Zetterberg and Weiss are on LTIR which is allowing them to exceed the cap by their "caphit." When those players are removed from the LTIR the Red Wings will have much much much lower than 7M cap space. And then you got bonuses. Again looking at the Red Wings that are already spending 67M due to injuries and with Alfredsson having 2M bonus (along with another couple million with their rookies) they're already looking at having to use their bonus cushion and taking a penalty next year on it.

[Patrick Bateman]

OMG I simply said that Smid wasn't a fantastic third pairing defensemen!!

I didn't say he was awful or not NHL worthy. I am simply of the opinion that many teams have similar types of guys that play third pairing and that Smid isn't "out of this world" in that role. I think he is adequate.

What is so offensive about having that opinion, and enjoying the use of non-standard stats to arrive at that opinion? Can't we agree to disagree that both sides have some basis for their opinion without immediately pulling the "troll" card?

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

Firstly, per capgeek, there are 23 teams with cap space above $3.5M. They could all technically have added Smid to their roster without removing any salary.

Secondly, most teams have a young player that eligible for waiver protocal that is not essential to their team that could be sent down. You could literally choose any team to find such a player ranging from 700k to a million. Teams manage to send down players and call them up on a daily basis.

I'm not changing any arguments here. Teams move non essential pieces up and down to the farm all the time.

Well the cap picture you are seeing today is not the same as it was during the Smid trade.

For example, the Red Wings are shown to have 7.5mil in cap space thanks to LTIR today.

Who is on LTIR? Zetterberg and Weiss

When did they get injured? Zetterberg injured on Dec 3 and Weiss Dec 11.


Smid was traded on Nov 8. The Red Wings didn't have the space they do now.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

My contradictory evidence is watching the game and judging the player on that.

That's not "evidence". Evidence means and this is straight from the disctionary:

the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.


You watching the game is not factual. It is an opinion. We all have them. Yours is no more valid than mine. And mine is no more valid than yours. It's just another opinion worth discussing to learn another's point of view.

[Red John]

Found him! Everybody welcome back "hawkfan"

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/member.php?u=13227


Check out his posts - identical passive-aggressive style...also defending the Oilers.

[JiriHrdina]

So the video of a game is not evidence of how good that player is. Ok then

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

http://capgeek.com/payrolls

You're misguided. At the time of the trade and the difference between the players it's reasonable to say taking on Smid would cost roughly 2.5M in additional spending by the end of the year. This is counting what the Oilers had already spent on Smid and the removal of the bottom pairing 7th defenseman from the roster.

Now take a look at those teams and start listing those that could take on an additional 2.5M in spending and stay under the 64.3M cap.

If you're going to Capgeek and purely looking at a team's cap space you're wrong on two accounts. First is that it's been pro-rated now. Being able to take on 3M today is a lot different than taking it on months ago when the season was just starting. More importantly though is the LTIR. Sure Detroit could take on 7M today, but that's because Zetterberg and Weiss are on LTIR which is allowing them to exceed the cap by their "caphit." When those players are removed from the LTIR the Red Wings will have much much much lower than 7M cap space. And then you got bonuses. Again looking at the Red Wings that are already spending 67M due to injuries and with Alfredsson having 2M bonus (along with another couple million with their rookies) they're already looking at having to use their bonus cushion and taking a penalty next year on it.

Thanks - and very fair points, I did not consider that in my analysis.

Still, the point remains, starting with the 23 teams I mentioned earlier, how many of them have such extenuating cirumstances that the have since added sufficient cap space to add a Smid? I'm guessing there would still be sufficient teams to find a market for him, otherwise presumably the Flames wouldn't have had to give up anything for him?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Red John

Found him! Everybody welcome back "hawkfan"

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/member.php?u=13227


Check out his posts - identical passive-aggressive style...also defending the Oilers.

That's some good work Lou

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

So the video of a game is not evidence of how good that player is. Ok then

A viedo is evidence.

You watching the video is not (and neither is me watching it).

We derive opinions from watching the video.