Burke Philosophy VS Feaster Philosophy

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Burke does (or did in Toronto) draft a bunch of big oafs.. but they are typically in the later rounds. James Devane and Barron Smith come to mind... Smith (son of Steve Smith) couldn't even cut it in the OHL. But really Feaster did draft Kanzig in the 3rd round and he's a big lug for the most part.

On the other hand he traded up to draft Tyler Biggs who is the definition of an untalented big oaf in the 1st rnd.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It's a combination of wishing for the best and closet Leaf fans (of whom there are legion). What's funny is how many who slammed Feaster for his platitudes are eating up the carefully rehearsed sound-bites Burke loves to throw out in his sports-theatre press conferences.

Burke is a mediocre retread who excels at self-promotion. He's the Pat Quinn of GMs. We'd be laughing at Edmonton if he took the GM job there.

Mediocre retread or not, I'm just glad amateur hour seems to be over. There are a number of posters on this site that would do a better job than Feaster has done.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

On the other hand he traded up to draft Tyler Biggs who is the definition of an untalented big oaf in the 1st rnd.

Tyler Biggs is a virtual match for Michael McCarron who Montreal drafted in the 1st round. Both guys from the US National program.. both big and then they moved to the CHL and didn't live up to expectations. But its also Biggs first pro season and seems a bit soon to write him off.

Ferland is a guy who was a disaster as a pro in his first season and has turned it around in his second.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

So for all the talk about what kind of mess Darryl left Feaster... what did Feaster leave in Tampa? Outside of Stamkos (1st overall) his best draft pick was probably Kari Ramo. Aging franchise players on long term contracts with NTC/NMC. Little depth. Year after year, the team gets worse in the standings... in a few years I wonder how the Flames will be thought up of from Feasters mess. David Jones making $4M, Wideman on year 2 of a 5 year contract paid as a top pairing defenseman, however his 2 best goalies not in the NHL do, the legecy returns of Iginla/Bouw/Regehr....

Not to defend Feaster's overall record, but you are aware that the situation he dealt with in Tampa was an absolute joke, right? Two owners running the team like it was a fantasy hockey squad, meddling constantly in day to day operations, and ultimately forcing the NHL to find a replacement for them. Not even Brian "God" Burke himself would have succeeded there.

[liamenator]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Not to defend Feaster's overall record, but you are aware that the situation he dealt with in Tampa was an absolute joke, right? Two owners running the team like it was a fantasy hockey squad, meddling constantly in day to day operations, and ultimately forcing the NHL to find a replacement for them. Not even Brian "God" Burke himself would have succeeded there.

Jay Feaster worked under Kouleas and Barrie for 12 of the 78 months he was GM.

[liamenator]

Originally Posted by UKflames

The love for BB on this site at the moment is beyond a man crush

Again we have people turning the stick that they use to beat Feaster into a flag pole for Burke. When the chips started to fall everyone was pleased it was finally happening. Many people stressed patience and that we shouldn't rush the rebuild, this season was going to be tough but it would result in good times ahead. We didn't want any rushed moves and building through the draft was the right direction for the basis of the rebuild.

Now Burke has said that he isn't a patient man and want to move this forward, everyone is thinking this is a great idea and patience is no longer needed. Building a team through the draft, no let's start packaging up our first round pick with some of other prospects, as suggested in one of the other threads. If that had been suggested during Feasters time CP would have been up in arms as Feaster was throwing away picks which we needed to use.

All of the Burke supporters are claiming what great teams BB has built, I don't see Vancouver or Toronto having won a stanley cup any time recently, so maybe those teams are not as great as everyone is saying.

Literally no one in this thread is suggesting this.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Not to defend Feaster's overall record, but you are aware that the situation he dealt with in Tampa was an absolute joke, right? Two owners running the team like it was a fantasy hockey squad, meddling constantly in day to day operations, and ultimately forcing the NHL to find a replacement for them. Not even Brian "God" Burke himself would have succeeded there.

Actually, Feaster just about resigned by the time those two owners took control. Feaster might have been forced to cut payroll (trade Brad Richards) for the new owners, but before those new owners exerted influence over the Lightning, the Lightning were on their way to having a crack at drafting Stamkos. The Lightning were a cap team and Feaster managed that team to a last place finish. It was all on Feaster.

[calgARI]

Yeah I'm pretty sure brilliant Feaster is the one who chose to put like two thirds of their cap space to three players (Lecavalier, St Louis, Richards) while not retaining their top goaltender or several other quality players. He was ripped on for it at the time and he gave his classic moron press conferences, saying a bunch of Disney sports movie quotes. Guy didn't understand hockey or the economics of hockey.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by FAN

Actually, Feaster just about resigned by the time those two owners took control. Feaster might have been forced to cut payroll (trade Brad Richards) for the new owners, but before those new owners exerted influence over the Lightning, the Lightning were on their way to having a crack at drafting Stamkos. The Lightning were a cap team and Feaster managed that team to a last place finish. It was all on Feaster.

Feaster did not do a great job in TB, but you are ignoring the context of the situation there, which in turn paints a less flattering picture of his work there than in reality. Feaster was also found in the very difficult position of attempting to keep the core of the Stanley Cup championship Lighting team together in a dramatically altered economic landscape. One could argue that his task was more difficult than anyone else in the NHL, and I would venture that there are few who could have done much better in the same circumstances.

Feaster seems to have made some adjustments in the wake of the changes that occurred, as evidenced by his emphasis on scouting and drafting, and the philosophical weight afforded to hockey IQ and character in player acquisition. These look like small matters in 2013, but it is easy to forget how differently teams were constructed and managed to find success in the 90's.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by calgARI

Yeah I'm pretty sure brilliant Feaster is the one who chose to put like two thirds of their cap space to three players (Lecavalier, St Louis, Richards) while not retaining their top goaltender or several other quality players. He was ripped on for it at the time and he gave his classic moron press conferences, saying a bunch of Disney sports movie quotes. Guy didn't understand hockey or the economics of hockey.

Actually, Feaster resigned because of the outrageous value and term of the LeCavalier contract, which was essentially negotiated by Barrie and Koules despite Feaster's protestations.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Burke employed different philosophies in different teams.

I really don't think the Leafs are contenders. I do see them as a mediocre team. Nobody is fooled by them and think they can legitimately challenge for the cup.

However, look at his work in Vancouver. He basically rebuilt that team. He made a series of moves to garner two top picks to draft the Sedins. He has drafted and built around skilled guys that do not have that 'truculence' that is often talked about by him. Kadri and Kessel are guys that aren't going to make anyone else black and blue.

I don't like Burke. I think he is and always has been a bit of a blowhard who comes off arrogant and at times, a bully. However, I do think that he has a proven track record of success and he can indeed build a team. I don't think he doesn't have patience, but I also don't think he is that arrogant and that incompetent to rush through a rebuild and put a 'finished' stamp on it.

I kind of agree but not completely. Burke did employ different philosophies with different teams, but I think the Cup win got to his head. In Vancouver, he worked in a situation where he had to be frugal. He was at his best making moves that didn't break the bank. Even in Anaheim he was careful before he won the Cup. Ya he acquired Niedermayer and Pronger, but he also salary dumped Fedorov. That was before he won a Cup. After that it was buy buy buy and don't care for the future.

I think his body of work is overrated in the sense that he's not the genius or top GM that some fans believe he is. In Vancouver, give him credit for rebuilding the team, but he had a ton of assets to work with. Naslund and Bertuzzi were already there. His best defenseman Ohlund was already there. He acquired Jovanovski, but he was able to do that because he had Pavel Bure to trade. He acquired Brendan Morrison but he had Alex Mogilny to trade. He drafted the Sedins and credit goes to Brian Burke for making it happen, but he already had the 3rd overall pick and he acquired the 4th overall pick to make the deal happen because he had Bryan McCabe to trade (another Keenan acquisition). The Burke-built Canucks teams never went far in the playoffs and when he left, the team pretty much had one last season (the lockout year) of being a playoff team and the cupboard was bare.

In Anaheim he was able to sign Scott Niedermayer because his brother was already there but credit to Burke for getting it done. He took a chance on re-signing Selanne, was able to acquire Pronger, and make that Fedorov for Beauchemin trade. Credit Burke for that. But beyond that, the core guys were already there and when he left the Ducks were in cap hell, the cupboards were bare, and the Ducks were pretty much finished as playoff contenders.

In Toronto, I agree with you that I think he built a mediocre team. The Leafs are no where close to being Cup contenders. If it wasn't for his buddy Bob Murray gifting some players to Burke the Leafs would be in a worse position.

I have no doubts that Brian Burke can rebuild this Flames into a team that makes the playoffs within 4-5 years. But I have serious doubts about Burke's ability to rebuild the Flames into a team that is a serious contender for the Cup.

[calgARI]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Actually, Feaster resigned because of the outrageous value and term of the LeCavalier contract, which was essentially negotiated by Barrie and Koules despite Feaster's protestations.

The decision to build around those three guys was Feaster's before those owners ever arrived. The Lecavalier deal directed by those owners was a result of that decision, not the decision itself.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by calgARI

Yeah I'm pretty sure brilliant Feaster is the one who chose to put like two thirds of their cap space to three players (Lecavalier, St Louis, Richards) while not retaining their top goaltender or several other quality players.

I'll have to check in the "Behind the Moves" book when I get home on Saturday (in fact, now that Burkie has prime role on the Flames I'll have to re-read the ton of stuff about him in there ), but IIRC Feaster said that they had to re-sign 5 key guys after the lockout (Lecavalier, St Louis, Richards, Boyle and Khabibulin) and only had money to re-sign 4 of them. He even called a meeting with all of them to explain the situation and tell them basically "well this is the money we have, can we make this work?". Of course, no one would give in. Khabibulin was the one with the highest demands and therefore was let go. That's how I remember it, but will check in the book to make sure.

Mistake? Probably. But hindsight is always 20/20 and it was a really tough situation for a GM: St Louis was the reigning Art Ross and Hart Trophy winner. Richards was the reigning Conn Smythe winner. Lecavalier was one of their leaders and faces of the team. Boyle was one of the top offensive defenseman in the league and Khabibulin came off a spectacular season as well. In hindsight he should have let someone else go, but it was a tricky situation nevertheless.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by calgARI

The decision to build around those three guys was Feaster's before those owners ever arrived. The Lecavalier deal directed by those owners was a result of that decision, not the decision itself.

That decision was not in itself the wrong one. The fact of the matter remains that LeCavalier at a lower rate and shorter term would have made good sense, but that the error occurred in the drafting of the extension itself, which was well outside Feaster's recommendations for value and term.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by devo22

...In hindsight he should have let someone else go, but it was a tricky situation nevertheless.

Even that is debatable, since Khabibulin has never approached anything even close to replicating his success in TB since his departure. I would actually argue that every one of the rest of the big five have been individually better in the tie since the TB Stanley Cup win.

[UKflames]

Originally Posted by liamenator

Literally no one in this thread is suggesting this.

That would be why I said "as suggested in one of the OTHER threads".

[Hanna Sniper]

Originally Posted by UKflames

The love for BB on this site at the moment is beyond a man crush

Again we have people turning the stick that they use to beat Feaster into a flag pole for Burke. When the chips started to fall everyone was pleased it was finally happening. Many people stressed patience and that we shouldn't rush the rebuild, this season was going to be tough but it would result in good times ahead. We didn't want any rushed moves and building through the draft was the right direction for the basis of the rebuild.

Now Burke has said that he isn't a patient man and want to move this forward, everyone is thinking this is a great idea and patience is no longer needed. Building a team through the draft, no let's start packaging up our first round pick with some of other prospects, as suggested in one of the other threads. If that had been suggested during Feasters time CP would have been up in arms as Feaster was throwing away picks which we needed to use.

All of the Burke supporters are claiming what great teams BB has built, I don't see Vancouver or Toronto having won a stanley cup any time recently, so maybe those teams are not as great as everyone is saying.

Here's the thing, when you have a large forum like this you are going to have many many different views and not any one view will be the voice of all.

For the members that disliked Feaster, their words are a lot easier to hear now since Feaster is burnt toast. Also it's not a far stretch for a non Feaster supporter to aline with Burke... much in the same way the anti Sutter group jumped on the Feaster bandwagon easily... because they appear to opposite of everything you think is wrong.

Added to that, there's a way different view on how and what a rebuild is. There's a large group that see tanking as a strategic and be all to build a championship team... there's just as large of a group that see that route as a sure fire way to build a loosing mentality.

As soon as you think this forum is united in one view that it's understandable how one can see people shifting like your post.... there is so many vocal members that whichever viewpoint can have a large amount of supporters

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Not to defend Feaster's overall record, but you are aware that the situation he dealt with in Tampa was an absolute joke, right? Two owners running the team like it was a fantasy hockey squad, meddling constantly in day to day operations, and ultimately forcing the NHL to find a replacement for them. Not even Brian "God" Burke himself would have succeeded there.

Can't blame the ownership for Feaster massively overpaying Richards and letting Khabibulin go to free agency without a contingency plan in net. He took a cup winning team, removed the goaltender that won them the cup leaving the team without a proven starter in net and that team progressively got worse. Really not much different than handcuffing the Flames last season with no centers. Ironically years later he traded Richards for Mike Smith who bombed in Tampa all but sealing Feaster's fate and that's not including the horrendous drafting of the Lighting under Feaster.

The ownership situation was a joke but in the end Feaster was the architect of the mess that team became after winning the cup.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Not to defend Feaster's overall record, but you are aware that the situation he dealt with in Tampa was an absolute joke, right? Two owners running the team like it was a fantasy hockey squad, meddling constantly in day to day operations, and ultimately forcing the NHL to find a replacement for them. Not even Brian "God" Burke himself would have succeeded there.

Who said Brian Burke was god? Why do you keep on saying this?

Feaster might not have had the perfect owners, but he couldn't have done a worse job. Locked himself into cap hell, tried to get out of it by trading franchise players for magic beans (sound familiar) and his 2nd draft pick in half a decade was Kari Ramo or Blair Jones. Darryl, who many consider a terrible GM, followed up the "new NHL" with multiple 90 pt seasons, while Feaster's team took an immediate nose dive into last place.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by calgARI

Yeah I'm pretty sure brilliant Feaster is the one who chose to put like two thirds of their cap space to three players (Lecavalier, St Louis, Richards) while not retaining their top goaltender or several other quality players. He was ripped on for it at the time and he gave his classic moron press conferences, saying a bunch of Disney sports movie quotes. Guy didn't understand hockey or the economics of hockey.

To be fair, he was the first GM to have to resign a championship team in the salary cap era (with the lowest cap). Obviously he made some bad choices, but so did Tallon and maybe others. I recall Sutter making some pretty bad cap choices too.

Not trying to defend Feaster's record, just pointing out he isn't the only GM to screw himself on the cap.