How many brutal giveaways does Butler need to do..

[Hockeyboi]

While I agree the Butler has given up the puck to easily at times and it's cost us and he needs to learn to do better but on the other hand doesn't he have the most blocked shots on the team? Also I think he's slowly getting better, maybe spell in the AHL if that's an option. Also Ramo needs to learn how to play the puck from behind his net, he's messed t up a few times this season!

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

What I think people are missing, is that the coaches are sheilding Brodie and Russels assignments much more than Butlers, which makes all of us feel like Brodie and Russel are better options than Butler.

Are you sure about that? If you can back that up I'm open to it, but from what I see I disagree. Brodie and Russell are often matched up against the other teams top players, especially since Gio was out.

Both of those guys have done very well considering the high level of competition they have faced, and I think if Brodie was getting easier assignments we would be seeing even more points from him.

[Itse]

+/- is an okay stat when as long as you look at it in context. If somebody stands out, it's usually not by accident.

Here's our d-men that have played 24-29 games:
Wideman -6 ATOI 26:50
Brodie -7 ATOI 23:50
Russell +6 ATOI 23:31
Butler -16 ATOI 20:20
O'Brien 0 ATOI 10:27

D-Men with 11-12 games:
Giordano -3 ATOI 24:41
Smid -4 ATOI 18:55
Smith -5 ATOI 8:44

I'm not saying Butler sucks, but I am saying I would rather not have him on this team. He's very much like Bouwmeester in that sense. I just don't want to pay money to watch him play, because he so rarely contributes to a good experience and so often contributes to a bad one.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Itse

+/- is an okay stat when as long as you look at it in context. If somebody stands out, it's usually not by accident.

Here's our d-men that have played 24-29 games:
Wideman -6 ATOI 26:50
Brodie -7 ATOI 23:50
Butler -16 ATOI 20:20
O'Brien 0 ATOI 10:27

D-Men with 11-12 games:
Giordano -3 ATOI 24:41
Smid -4 ATOI 18:55
Smith -5 ATOI 8:44

I'm not saying Butler sucks, but I am saying I would rather not have him on this team. He's very much like Bouwmeester in that sense. I just don't want to pay money to watch him play, because he so rarely contributes to a good experience and so often contributes to a bad one.

I think you hit it pretty spot on.

+/- is a bit questionable in terms of comparing two players from different teams, but when using it as "part of the puzzle" or in comparison to other players on the same team in similar situations then I think it's a fair stat to use.

It's not that Butler being -16 is bad just because. It's that Butler being -16 when the next comparable is -7 makes him exceptionally bad.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

Are you sure about that? If you can back that up I'm open to it, but from what I see I disagree. Brodie and Russell are often matched up against the other teams top players, especially since Gio was out.

Both of those guys have done very well considering the high level of competition they have faced, and I think if Brodie was getting easier assignments we would be seeing even more points from him.

I'm sure there are advanced stats to look at, which I won't do because it will take me too long. Overall, I think that Brodie and Butler over the course of the year have been played pretty equally. But I also feel that Brodie makes just as many mistakes as Butler, but does provide much more on the offensive side which makes us "forget". Russel, I'm quite certain hasn't been played in as many tough spots. The below is not the "be all end all" to prove my point, but does show some of what I'm saying:

- Butler - 1% of his ice time on the PP, 13% on the PK.
- Brodie - 9% on the PP, 7% on PK (more balanced than Butler)
- Russel - 12% on the PP, 4% on the PK.

Obvioulsy what contributes to the above is the type of player they are, and by no means am I suggesting the Flames should have Butler on the PP. But it does show, that Butler, by default being on the PK much more often gets thrown into spots that are tougher, and will highlight any mistake he makes more often than the other two. While Russel, gets the other end of the stick, out on the PP so often where it's harder to put him in positions to make mistakes that could end up in our net, and he rarely touches the ice on the PK.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Itse

+/- is an okay stat when as long as you look at it in context. If somebody stands out, it's usually not by accident.

Here's our d-men that have played 24-29 games:
Wideman -6 ATOI 26:50
Brodie -7 ATOI 23:50
Butler -16 ATOI 20:20
O'Brien 0 ATOI 10:27

D-Men with 11-12 games:
Giordano -3 ATOI 24:41
Smid -4 ATOI 18:55
Smith -5 ATOI 8:44

I'm not saying Butler sucks, but I am saying I would rather not have him on this team. He's very much like Bouwmeester in that sense. I just don't want to pay money to watch him play, because he so rarely contributes to a good experience and so often contributes to a bad one.

Agreed, but why is he standing out? Because he's bad, or being used wrong. Butler is a very bad Top 4 d-man, your stats prove that out. But how would his stats compare to SOB's if he was used in the same fashion, or how would SOB's numbers compare if he was used like Butler was? We don't know, but I'm feeling pretty confident he'd outperform SOB in the same role.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

What's laughable is that Hartley keeps trying to slot Butler onto the top pairing.

I don't even know if that's true.

Brodie, Giordano and Russel all play against tougher competition than Butler does.

[Ulrith]

On the bright side...if Butler is back next year, we will definitely have a legitimate shot a McDavid...

But seriously though, I think the only logical reason for keeping Butler around is for high draft picks because the guy does nothing but lose us hockey games.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Itse

+/- is an okay stat when as long as you look at it in context. If somebody stands out, it's usually not by accident.

Here's our d-men that have played 24-29 games:
Wideman -6 ATOI 26:50
Brodie -7 ATOI 23:50
Butler -16 ATOI 20:20
O'Brien 0 ATOI 10:27

D-Men with 11-12 games:
Giordano -3 ATOI 24:41
Smid -4 ATOI 18:55
Smith -5 ATOI 8:44

I'm not saying Butler sucks, but I am saying I would rather not have him on this team. He's very much like Bouwmeester in that sense. I just don't want to pay money to watch him play, because he so rarely contributes to a good experience and so often contributes to a bad one.

You are missing Russel who is the anti-Butler. 23:31/game, and +6 in all 29 games. I don't think Russel is heads and shoulders better than the rest of the defence as his stats show....but the eyes do tell me, sign him and get rid of Butler.

[Itse]

Oops. Added Russell. Also, wow, is he ever ahead of the pack, next guy on the team with comparable minutes is Hudler with +0.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Itse

Oops. Added Russell. Also, wow, is he ever ahead of the pack, next guy on the team with comparable minutes is Hudler with +0.

Yeah, thats a real outlier. He must have like 10 minutes played with Butler all season or something.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

If he was put on waivers, I don't think he would pass. He is probably tradeable for something. Surprised we haven't seen that happen. Having added Smid, it should make it possible to bring up Cundari (is he playing again?).

Pretty sure the organization sees Breen and Billins ahead of Cundari right now. No way he gets a chance before those guys IMO. Wotherspoon might get a chance ahead of Cundari this year.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Ulrith

On the bright side...if Butler is back next year, we will definitely have a legitimate shot a McDavid...

But seriously though, I think the only logical reason for keeping Butler around is for high draft picks because the guy does nothing but lose us hockey games.

Please. Replacing Butler with another bottom pairing defenseman is not going to result in a dramatic turnaround of the Flames' fortunes. This is a bad team, with or without Butler in the lineup.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Please. Replacing Butler with another bottom pairing defenseman is not going to result in a dramatic turnaround of the Flames' fortunes. This is a bad team, with or without Butler in the lineup.

True, but then why bother? This line of reasoning is silly. We would like the team to win more, and butler is more of a hindrance to that than you're admitting.

Your answer to us saying he's terrible is:

"So what? No point in changing anything."

That seems silly to me. If we want to improve the team (admittedly not drastically) then give his minutes to someone else.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Please. Replacing Butler with another bottom pairing defenseman is not going to result in a dramatic turnaround of the Flames' fortunes. This is a bad team, with or without Butler in the lineup.

No question.

So if there is no advantage to having Butler in the lineup, might as well utilize the spot to test, train and develop the prospects.

[kehatch]

EV Calgary is -21 (EV Goals for - EV Goals against). By the same metric Butler is -16. The next worse D is -7.

I am not a big fan of the plus/minus stat. But seriously. That is really bad.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Your answer to us saying he's terrible is:

"So what? No point in changing anything."

That seems silly to me. If we want to improve the team (admittedly not drastically) then give his minutes to someone else.

That is not my answer. My answer is that he is not terrible. He is average, and the Flames are not likely to upgrade on the position because this is what you get with bottom-pairing defensemen. I think his mistakes are exacerbated by the fact that the coaches seem to like having him on the ice in a lot of high-pressure situations, and by the scrutiny he receives here.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No question.

So if there is no advantage to having Butler in the lineup, might as well utilize the spot to test, train and develop the prospects.

Maybe. But I'm not convinced. I would consider Sieloff, Wotherspoon,and Ramage the Flames' best defense prospects are all three are AHL rookies. These are the players the Flames are most invested in, and while there are some other intriguing prospects on the Heat roster, I'm not convinced they have much more to offer than Butler. In short, I think defensive prospects are all still too raw, or are simply not much of an upgrade, and with not much more room to develop. Like I have said a few times: replacing Butler with another bottom pairing defenseman doesn't do anything to improve the team in the short or long term. Replacing Butler with a prospect for the sake of development may also not mean anything of much value to that player's development.

In the end, I just don't get what all the fuss is about.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No question.

So if there is no advantage to having Butler in the lineup, might as well utilize the spot to test, train and develop the prospects.

Breen can't make the lineup so giving him Butler's spot makes the team worse. As Textcritic said there isn't anyone on the Heat ready to make the jump. I think Butler has been good for the team in that he's filled in well for Giordano and Wideman and has become a lightning rod for fans to concern themselves with distracting them from more glaring issues with the franchise. The reality is that if Butler was the Flames biggest problem this franchise would be in very good shape.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

That is not my answer. My answer is that he is not terrible. He is average, and the Flames are not likely to upgrade on the position because this is what you get with bottom-pairing defensemen. I think his mistakes are exacerbated by the fact that the coaches seem to like having him on the ice in a lot of high-pressure situations, and by the scrutiny he receives here.


Maybe. But I'm not convinced. I would consider Sieloff, Wotherspoon,and Ramage the Flames' best defense prospects are all three are AHL rookies. These are the players the Flames are most invested in, and while there are some other intriguing prospects on the Heat roster, I'm not convinced they have much more to offer than Butler. In short, I think defensive prospects are all still too raw, or are simply not much of an upgrade, and with not much more room to develop. Like I have said a few times: replacing Butler with another bottom pairing defenseman doesn't do anything to improve the team in the short or long term. Replacing Butler with a prospect for the sake of development may also not mean anything of much value to that player's development.

In the end, I just don't get what all the fuss is about.

I can't say I'm necessarily "convinced" either, but would sure like to see more of a guy like Chad Billins, who IMO looked quite a bit better then Butler in his pair of NHL games (small sample size, I know) and has really impressed this year in the AHL. I understand wanting to keep some of the younger pro's down the AHL, as that is likely best for their development. But a guy like Billins, who is going to turn 25 years old by the end of the season, who is PPG in 20+ AHL games and who looked decent in his cup of coffee in the NHL earlier in the year, I would argue it is very possible he brings more then Butler does.

At the end of the day, as others have mentioned, I just don't see any real advantage in continuing to play Butler. We're a rebuilding team and Butler has had numerous seasons getting top minutes on our roster and IMO, hasn't improved a lick. Might as well start giving shots to guys like Breen and Billins, as we really aren't sure what they can bring on a nightly basis in the NHL. But we do know they've shown signs of having potential to get better, and I would personally prefer to try and foster that potential rather then continue to suffer through Butler's nightly blunders in hopes that one day, one month, one season he might "get it" and become more then he has been since joining the team.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Breen can't make the lineup so giving him Butler's spot makes the team worse. As Textcritic said there isn't anyone on the Heat ready to make the jump. I think Butler has been good for the team in that he's filled in well for Giordano and Wideman and has become a lightning rod for fans to concern themselves with distracting them from more glaring issues with the franchise. The reality is that if Butler was the Flames biggest problem this franchise would be in very good shape.

Agreed. All good points, Imo.