Ongoing Senate scandal

[Rerun]

RCMP probe into Wright-Duffy affair reveals 5 new threads


1. 'No evidence' Harper knew of Wright-Duffy deal

The evidence assembled by the RCMP alleges that Prime Minister Stephen Harper did not know about the details of the $90,000 cheque Wright gave to Duffy, only that "the prime minister was informed by his staff that they were working on a plan to have Senator Duffy repay expenses."

2. PMO 'influenced' Duffy's Senate audit report

The RCMP has expanded its investigation to include the Prime Minister's Office, the court documents filed by the RCMP on Nov. 15 show.
While the prime minister has repeatedly told the Commons that it is Duffy who is under investigation by the RCMP and not his own office, the court documents allege that half a dozen senior members of Harper's staff and Conservatives in the Senate were involved in the matter of Duffy's ineligible expenses.
Cpl. Horton, in the sworn affidavit, alleges that the senior ranks of the Prime Minister's Office directed Conservative senators to alter the final Senate audit report into Duffy's ineligible expenses. The RCMP also alleges the PMO played a role in the deal struck between Wright and Duffy to repay the $90,000.

3. RCMP emails involve PMO, Conservative senators

While the RCMP has asked Duffy to turn over hundreds of emails and the PMO has said it is co-operating with the Mounties, Cpl. Horton said they have narrowed 260,000 emails down to 2,600 emails they say contain "possible evidentiary value."
The RCMP notes PMO legal counsel said the prime minister had given "clear orders" for the PMO to provide "complete co-operation" with the investigation and offer any assistance or documentation requested by the RCMP.

4. Senator Irving Gerstein's Deloitte contact

One of the 2,600 emails the RCMP say contain "possible evidentiary value" is an email from Patrick Rogers pertaining to Deloitte's mandate from the Senate.
On March 21, Gerstein contacted Rogers and said that Deloitte would not be stopping the audit, and that their mandate was to determine residency, according to an interview the RCMP conducted with Wright on July 18.
In a subsequent interview with the RCMP on Sept. 16, Gerstein said he does know Michael Runia, one of the partners at Deloitte and did ask him if there was anything he could share regarding the status of their audit.

5. Senator LeBreton's staffer raised red flag

It appears there was some opposition to the changes the PMO wanted to have made to the final Senate audit report into Duffy's expenses, according to Cpl. Horton.
The opposition came primarily from Chris Montgomery, an employee of the Privy Council Office who worked for Senator LeBreton on issues management for the government in the Senate, and also from the Senate Clerk.
Montgomery "insisted the Senators were compromising themselves by changing the report to meet demands by the PMO," said Cpl. Horton.
In an interview with the RCMP on Sept. 11, Montgomery said "he advised the PMO, specifically Rogers and Woodcock, that they should not be involved" in Duffy's Senate audit and reports. Montgomery told the RCMP they ignored him.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp...eads-1.2433672


Certainly doesn't look good for the PMO and certain Conservative Senators

[Slava]

Or the PM himself....

[RedHot25]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...n-by-a-thread/

So: how stands that slender thread after today? Answer: still there, barely, but fraying by the hour. No, the RCMP affidavit does not produce direct evidence to prove him wrong on this question. But it demonstrates, more clearly than ever, how finely drawn and ultimately irrelevant it is.

Whatever might be meant by Mr. Wright’s later email to a colleague, that “the PM knows, in broad terms only, that I personally assisted Duffy when I was getting him to agree to repay the expenses,” and regardless of the officer’s statement, offered elsewhere, that “I have seen no evidence to suggest that the Prime Minister was personally involved in the minutiae of those matters,” it seems clear that he knew a great deal more than he has let on. Which was, you will remember, nothing.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...tephen-harper/

Then there are the sheer number of people in the PMO who appear to have known about the Wright cheque, including (if Mr. Duffy is to be believed, a whopper of a caveat admittedly) Ray Novak, the Prime Minister’s current chief of staff. Former denizens of the Langevin Block say there is very little that goes on there about which the Prime Minister is not apprised. This would be one hell of a precedent.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Slava

Or the PM himself....

As far as the PM, the only problem that I can see is that he has serious problems with his senior PMO staff.

I still believe that he was in the dark about this and haven't seen any proof to the contrary. Even the RCMP state there is no evidence.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Slava

Or the PM himself....

Not the PM, just everyone around him . From Rerun's own article...

Who's who

Individuals at the centre of the emails obtained by the RCMP and the positions they held at the time:
Nigel Wright, chief of staff to Prime Minister Stephen Harper
Benjamin Perrin, special adviser and legal counsel to PM
Chris Woodcock, director of issues management at the Prime Minister's Office
David van Hemmen, executive assistant to the prime minister's chief of staff
Patrick Rogers, manager of parliamentary affairs at the PMO
​Ray Novak, deputy chief of staff to the PM
Andrew MacDougall, director of communications for the PMO
Senator Marjory LeBreton, government leader in the Senate
Senator David Tkachuk, chair of the Senate standing committee
Senator Carolyn Stewart Olsen, member of the Senate standing committee
Christopher Montgomery, responsible for issues management for the government in the Senate
Janice Payne, lawyer for Mike Duffy
Senator Mike Duffy

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Rerun

As far as the PM, the only problem that I can see is that he has serious problems with his senior PMO staff.

I still believe that he was in the dark about this and haven't seen any proof to the contrary. Even the RCMP state there is no evidence.

As I said, plausible deniability is all Rerun needs. Now of course if we're talking about the Liberals or NDP, all Rerun needs is the scent of something wrong. Proof? Pft....

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Rerun

As far as the PM, the only problem that I can see is that he has serious problems with his senior PMO staff.

I still believe that he was in the dark about this and haven't seen any proof to the contrary. Even the RCMP state there is no evidence.

Let's say for a second you are correct. That the most controlling, micro-managing prime minster we have had in recent memory, if not ever, had no idea this was going on.

Does this not raise an issue to Harper's competence as a leader that seemingly everyone in his office, people he hand picked for the positions knew of this scandal, and yet Harper knew nothing? No, he lied about that he knew Duffy was in trouble and was going to repay the money.

It seems like those are the only two options. He either broke the law to cover-up a misappropriation of funds, OR he was negligent or willfully blind to the events going on directly under his nose.

I guess the question I'm asking is...

Do you think Harper ought to have known what was going on? Not that he necessarily did, but that he should have known?

[Tinordi]

Partisans are the worst. Really and truly, people like Rerun are basically at the core of what's wrong with our political system today. The blind following of your "team" just to stick it to the other guy. That's just not how politics should work, it should be based on principles sure, but also on evidence, rational deliberation, discussion and open mindedness about alternatives.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Rerun

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp...eads-1.2433672


Certainly doesn't look good for the PMO and certain Conservative Senators

Uh oh...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/harp...fair-1.2435344

Harper ducks queries about fundraising chief in Duffy affair

Prime minister won't address why Senator Irving Gerstein was open to repaying Duffy

Asked directly by a reporter about when he knew Senator Irving Gerstein, chair of the Conservative Party Fund, initially planned to repay Duffy's housing claims, Harper replied, "I said right from the outset that Mike Duffy should repay his own expenses. I was told that was what he agreed to do, and I was told that was what he had done."

The CBC's Catherine Cullen asked Harper Thursday why Gerstein and Chris Woodcock, a former PMO staffer who now works for a cabinet minister, were still part of Harper's team since RCMP documents say both were aware of the Duffy repayment.

Harper again would not directly answer, but said, after accusing Wright of "inappropriate actions" and Duffy of "deliberately lying to the public," said, "It is Mr. Duffy and Mr. Wright who are under investigation for their actions. That is what is appropriate for this case."

[edslunch]

Let's see, Harper is responsible for appointing the senators and presumably hiring his staff. They go rogue and he knows nothing about it. As facts come out he throws everyone under the bus. No matter how you spin it there are layers of incompetence here. The day he leaves parliament can't come soon enough

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Partisans are the worst. Really and truly, people like Rerun are basically at the core of what's wrong with our political system today. The blind following of your "team" just to stick it to the other guy. That's just not how politics should work, it should be based on principles sure, but also on evidence, rational deliberation, discussion and open mindedness about alternatives.

could not agree more. Spot on. In my mind, partisan politics is the problem with North American politics. In fact partisan politics erodes the value of true democracy and actual societal progression.

[SebC]

Harper's plausible deniability is actually a sign of competence. It's just that his competence is applied to self-preservation, rather than the public interest.

[Daradon]

So here's a question. If the CPC were to put a new leader in before the next federal election (I could see Harper resigning anyway, as he's been PM for a while.) would that put anyone back in support of the party? Obviously I know the partisan crowd is going to vote conservative anyway, there's not much that changes the mind of people like that, and that goes for any party of course, not trying to pick on conservative voters. But for the rest of you, do you see this a problem that stops with Harper, or has it soured you to the CPC for a while?

Often when there has been bad leadership voters will sour on the party as a whole (like they did with the Liberals in the late 90's, and the now defunct PC's after Mulrony) and not just the leader. Not saying this is a bad thing, I think recycling governments is a decent way to keep them somewhat accountable. But I am wondering if the CPC might be able to keep a strong showing by bouncing the leader.

I would guess no, I remember how badly the original federal PC's got spanked after Mulrony left. So bad they lost official party status and it took them a whole decade to even get into the debate again. And then the Liberals as well after Chretien handed the keys to Martin. So I'm guessing a change in leadership won't help much.

But I am curious to see what you guys think and feel about it.

Me personally, my gripes go a bit further than just the PM. I was pro CPC for the vote but quickly got angry after finding out about the whole robocall scandal. Which I believe happened shortly after the vote. And of course is popping back up again with more information coming out on it this week. That's the kinda thing that happens in second world democracies and banana republics, (and the southern states, haha) it shouldn't happen in a responsible democracy. It was unforgivable in my eye, it's exactly the thing that erodes democracy and is the sort of thing voters should get upset about as it directly infringes on their rights within a democracy.

The anti-science especially anti-climate science angle is a big sticking point for me too.

But for people who these things don't bug too much, and I know there's a lot of them out there, is this Senate scandal the big one for you guys? Or does it wash away if Kenney or McKay is in charge next election?

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Let's say for a second you are correct. .....
I guess the question I'm asking is...

Do you think Harper ought to have known what was going on? Not that he necessarily did, but that he should have known?

Good question... like that you refrained from proving how witty you can be as so many others on here have a tendency to do, so I will give you my honest answer.


And the answer is....


Yes. Huge failure on his part. Really looks bad.

.... and that's one of the problems with micro managing. If you aren't around all the time to do exactly that, sometimes things go all to ####.

In this case, the PMO seems to be literally floating in it.... and sinking fast.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Good question... like that you refrained from proving how witty you can be as so many others on here have a tendency to do, so I will give you my honest answer.


And the answer is....


Yes. Huge failure on his part. Really looks bad.

.... and that's one of the problems with micro managing. If you aren't around all the time to do exactly that, sometimes things go all to ####.

In this case, the PMO seems to be literally floating in it.... and sinking fast.

Micro-managers just don't stop micro managing. hahahaha. Harper was in on it and has been lying about not knowing.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Good question... like that you refrained from proving how witty you can be as so many others on here have a tendency to do, so I will give you my honest answer.


And the answer is....


Yes. Huge failure on his part. Really looks bad.

.... and that's one of the problems with micro managing. If you aren't around all the time to do exactly that, sometimes things go all to ####.

In this case, the PMO seems to be literally floating in it.... and sinking fast.

That's a fair answer. One thing I've tried to do is leave my personal opinion out of the thread, and focus on the arguments themselves (with the exception of obvious Rob Ford joke, I can only contain myself so much).

Since Harper ought to have known what was going on, and having admitted to knowledge of members of his caucus misappropriated funds (evidenced by him saying he thought Duffy was paying back the money himself), do you think Harper should have asked more questions, or asked for more information about the on goings with his senators?

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

That's a fair answer. One thing I've tried to do is leave my personal opinion out of the thread, and focus on the arguments themselves (with the exception of obvious Rob Ford joke, I can only contain myself so much).

Since Harper ought to have known what was going on, and having admitted to knowledge of members of his caucus misappropriated funds (evidenced by him saying he thought Duffy was paying back the money himself), do you think Harper should have asked more questions, or asked for more information about the on goings with his senators?

Of course. He has totally mishandled the situation. I suspect he felt he could rely on his senior staff to handle situation in a professional and proper manner and its obvious now that he was completely wrong in that assessment.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

Micro-managers just don't stop micro managing. hahahaha. Harper was in on it and has been lying about not knowing.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Harper's looking a little old. Must be the stress from the senate scandal.

[Cuz]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Partisans are the worst. Really and truly, people like Rerun are basically at the core of what's wrong with our political system today. The blind following of your "team" just to stick it to the other guy. That's just not how politics should work, it should be based on principles sure, but also on evidence, rational deliberation, discussion and open mindedness about alternatives.

And communism works in theory. Theory and reality tend to be much different.........