McGrattan and fighting debate

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

My thread got closed but I do think it is a legitimate debate. Suspending fighters for fighting players who A. Completed a clean check and B. The player they fought was unwilling.

They need to start policing this a lot more and need to start handing out suspensions for fights like the Ference/Stempniak fight or like the Emery/Holtby fight.

You want your goons to stay and fight fine. You want fights to still happen on a play that was legitimately dirty, i get it, but still its a reluctant fine from me but last night was as close to assault as you can get IMO and players like Ference need to be held accountable on plays like that.

The bigger joke is how Ference only got a roughing penalty. It should have been roughing and an instigator.

When Bourque got his 9 minute penalty for beating up the no name Calgarian wasn't he assessed a roughing and an instigator?

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

The bigger joke is how Ference only got a roughing penalty. It should have been roughing and an instigator.

When Bourque got his 9 minute penalty for beating up the no name Calgarian wasn't he assessed a roughing and an instigator?

He was. 2 for roughing, 2 for instigating and 5 for fighting while the other guy got nothing and rightfully so. They gave Stempniak 5 minutes for losing teeth and throwing a clean check basically. Brutal.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

The bigger joke is how Ference only got a roughing penalty. It should have been roughing and an instigator.

When Bourque got his 9 minute penalty for beating up the no name Calgarian wasn't he assessed a roughing and an instigator?

The Cap player turtled, Stempniak eventually dropped his gloves. But I agree Ference got off far too lightly, it was a bit of a joke.

[Fusebox]

Why should it matter so much what the players think of fighting?

I'm a construction worker. Ten years ago, very few people wore gloves, a hard hat, safety boots, a high visibility vest, earplugs, or safety glasses. I had co-workers accuse me of being "soft" for wearing gloves.

Nowadays, very few people don't wear at least the basics on a construction site: steel toe boots, glasses, and a hard hat. Did we get to vote on whether to make these positive changes? No, of course not. Politicians legislated these changes in order to make the workplace safer for everyone. I just don't see how this is any different. These are grown men making a living, just like us. They shouldn't get to pick and choose which rules they get to follow.

What Andrew Ference pulled last night was criminal, and I love the guy. He was a great player for Calgary, probably he best fifth defenceman in the league. Tough as nails, never afraid to block a shot with his face that others wouldn't block with their butts. If he were to pull what he pulled last night in any other workplace, he'd be looking at serious jail time right now.

It is just a matter of time before fighting is eliminated from the league. Let's just hope that it doesn't take someone getting killed on the ice to make it happen.

[Street Pharmacist]

Question for those who think that the players opinions are the ones that matter:

-Do the families (wives, children and parents) have an opinion that matters? Do their grandchildren have an opinion?

-Do the Proberts have an opinion?

A safety decision does not rest solely on the employee/contractor. There's a reason legislation is made this way, and the reason liability is also on the league to decrease head injuries

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

The Cap player turtled, Stempniak eventually dropped his gloves. But I agree Ference got off far too lightly, it was a bit of a joke.

Well what's he supposed to do at that point. The first punch he took was a direct shot to the face that bloodied him and took out teeth. If Stemps doesn't throw off his gloves at that point to tie up Ference I think it ends even worse than it did. He threw off his gloves at that point in self-defense but you could tell he had no desire to be fighting what-so-ever and the fact that the Refs let it go just adds to the joke that it was. The nhl needs, needs, needs to start handing out suspensions for fights like this.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

Well what's he supposed to do at that point. The first punch he took was a direct shot to the face that bloodied him and took out teeth. If Stemps doesn't throw off his gloves at that point to tie up Ference I think it ends even worse than it did. He threw off his gloves at that point in self-defense but you could tell he had no desire to be fighting what-so-ever and the fact that the Refs let it go just adds to the joke that it was. The nhl needs, needs, needs to start handing out suspensions for fights like this.

Oh I agree, I was just pointing out that's why last night was different than Bourque's situation.

In my world, last night Ference should have got the original 2 for roughing, 2 for instigating, 5 for fighting and a game. What he did was so over the top obvious that there's no way he should have been left in the game. He went after a guy that clearly didn't want to fight at all after a clean hit. No place for garbage like that in the game.

[Major Major]

The only joke is that someone wearing red didn't punch Ference's eyes shut. The game is no longer allowed to organically regulate itself because of the instigator, but who cares about a penalty in a situation like that? Isn't the reason behind having a guy like Mcgratton to not get pushed around? Ference didn't deserve more in penalty minutes due to that fight, the refs hands were tied. The joke is that Bouma or Mcgratton didn't skate right over to Ference after he served and present him with the same no-choice situation that Stempniak had.

[Matty81]

Since the ference stempniak thread got closed...

Did anyone in the Calgary media even raise the subject among his flames teammates last night?

Losing to the Oilers in a huge comeback like that was crushing but a gutless team is even worse.

[Derek Sutton]

So nobody wants staged fighting and no one liked the Ferrence/ Stempniak fight, yet most still want fighting? what else is there?

If Stempniak drops his gloves immediately and goes with Ferrence, the Flames rally behind him as opposed to the Oilers rallying around Ferrence. Its not like Ferrence is a known tough guy, yet Stempniak feels he is too much of a goal scorer to stand up for himself. Yes hitting is part of the game, it was a good hit, but fighting is part of the game to and they go hand in hand. Ferrence was being a captain and standing up for himself and standing up for his team (after the beat down Mcgratton laid), is that not the "pro fighting" argument? He should have gotten an instigator, but really Stempniak looked foolish, we all could tell something was gonna happen, get your gloves off for f sakes

[flamesfever]

I watched that interview last night with McGrattan and felt sorry for him, and all those who are asked to make a living by fighting. Obviously the bravery and physical self sacrifice that these guys are expected to exhibit and endure, for our entertainment, is grossly unfair. And for that reason alone, fighting should be eliminated.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I watched that interview last night with McGrattan and felt sorry for him, and all those who are asked to make a living by fighting. Obviously the bravery and physical self sacrifice that these guys are expected to exhibit and endure, for our entertainment, is grossly unfair. And for that reason alone, fighting should be eliminated.

I think if McGrattan saw what you got paid at your job, he might feel sorry for you as well.

These guys go into this role with their eyes wide open, and are handsomly rewarded. They know what to expect, and are willing pugilists.
.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I watched that interview last night with McGrattan and felt sorry for him, and all those who are asked to make a living by fighting. Obviously the bravery and physical self sacrifice that these guys are expected to exhibit and endure, for our entertainment, is grossly unfair. And for that reason alone, fighting should be eliminated.

I do not feel bad for the "goon", just like I don't feel bad for teachers, nurses, etc... these are there chosen profesions and with such come risks and sacrifices but also some pretty good perks. Mcgratton has said before that he loves what he does, George Parros has a Harvard business degree yet has chosen the career of "profesional thug".

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Major Major

The joke is that Bouma or Mcgratton didn't skate right over to Ference after he served and present him with the same no-choice situation that Stempniak had.

That's because it goes against The Code™. Goons only fight other goons, which is why the assertion that they somehow prevent cheap shots from regular players is laughable IMO. They're a tacky sideshow spawned from the '70s expansion era.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by opendoor

That's because it goes against The Code™. Goons only fight other goons, which is why the assertion that they somehow prevent cheap shots from regular players is laughable IMO. They're a tacky sideshow spawned from the '70s expansion era.

Thats the difference between Mcgratton and say John Scott. Mcgratton would never fight Fereence, nor should he. Someone like Bouma on the other hand, that is the perfect situation for a 4th liner like him to spark his team.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

I do not feel bad for the "goon", just like I don't feel bad for teachers, nurses, etc... these are there chosen profesions and with such come risks and sacrifices but also some pretty good perks. Mcgratton has said before that he loves what he does, George Parros has a Harvard business degree yet has chosen the career of "profesional thug".

Would you not agree the risks to a "goon" are too high? Certainly much higher than teachers or nurses.

[bluloc]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

Matter of time until fighting is out of the game. The resistance is mostly from people whose livelihoods rely on it. It's a shame they've been put in that position, whether you argue they put themselves there or not. Fighting is not necessary, it's barbaric.

In my opinion of course.

Lol. They"ll never get rid of fighting.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Would you not agree the risks to a "goon" are too high? Certainly much higher than teachers or nurses.

Yes I agree, but there many other high risk jobs people work at on a daily basis, construction, oilfield, farmers, truck drivers etc... Some of these people though are forced into labour type/ high risk positions for various reasons, these are the people who I sympathize with.

[flamesfever]

IMO fighting in hockey is a mindset, perpetuated by the presence of goons. By getting rid of goons, which most people would probably go along with, I think the next step, i.e. to get rid of fighting altogether, would probably come much easier.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

IMO fighting in hockey is a mindset, perpetuated by the presence of goons. By getting rid of goons, which most people would probably go along with, I think the next step, i.e. to get rid of fighting altogether, would probably come much easier.

Short of going to 4 on 4 hockey, how do you get rid of the goons? I would be more for getting rid of the Cookes, Tootoos, and Kaletas of the game (different discussion all together) over the goons, but again how?