Considering that Burke traded Lupul in the same deal and apparently targeted him when he was a Flyer and ended up trading for him years later, the fact that Burke traded Smid in a deal for Pronger does not preclude Smid from being a guy Burke identified and targeted.
I don't think Burke didn't like Smid I am just not sure that he had a big enough connection that it was him driving the bus on this deal. I think he would have had a much bigger influence on the Colborne deal than this one for example.
Don't know where you are getting that from. Horak while popular was rarely seen as a big piece of the future. When most posters made up their future lineups, Horak would always be forgotten or left out. Plus, he's had 3 good cracks at full time NHL employment on a team desperate for centers and hasn't been able to stick.
As for Broissoit, all the goalie hype from Flames fans has been about Gillies.
General consensus seemed to be that Horak didn't belong in the AHL and many were disappointed he was sent down.
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Horak under Brent in his first season played 61 games and didn't look out of place most nights. In two seasons under Hartley he can't even get in the lineup. Meanwhile guys like Galiardi who IMO has been just going through the motions never lose their role and Jackman to me is no longer a full time NHL player.
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Horak, Knight and Reinhart are three guys who could potentially step up but there's no way that's happening when Stajan automatically takes a spot without any of them getting a shot.
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I'm going to go with Horak because of the experience and versatility. He can play centre if they want to sit Backlund, he can play wing to outright replace Glenny or Stemps. And I think he would be okay playing 15 minutes a game and special teams, he's getting a ton of time with Abbotsford in all situations.
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Bring in Horak, Knight. Keep Sven in ffs.
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We know Reinhart can play at this level & Street is serviceable. Horak & Cammy can play there if need be.
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Our 4th line is pretty weak overall. Why can't we have a line of Galiardi-Knight-Horak again?
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Knight Reinhart, Horak, Blair Jones and Ben Street are all touted to be Colborne level centres that are NHL ready but the Heat is not dominating the AHL.
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Blair Jones is a wasted contract IMO but Horak is the only one out of the players you have listed that has me scratching my head and agreeing on the disconnect that you mentioned. I think Horak needs to be given more than a game next time up
Brossoit was well thought of too.
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Brossoit and Gilles will be the cornerstones of the franchise going forward in goal. IMO
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And they have Gillies, Brossoit and Ortio in the pipeline for the future.
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Flames acquired Ramo + Berra & drafting Gillies and Brossoit. I think our goaltending situation will be fine, just give it time.
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I'm glad we have lots of options in net. The reality is that not every prospect is going to develop into a bonafide NHLer, but we've got a solid vet (Mac), two good prospects (Ramo and Berra) and three guys in the system with legit NHL potential (Ortio, Gillies and Brossoit).
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He felt the 4 minutes he got in his lone game this season (anaheim?) wasn't enough to show what he can do.
I took it to mean he felt the coach or management didn't like him:
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Originally Posted by browna
Horak via the Herald:
“I’m obviously disappointed but at the time I guess there were guys that deserved it more. It’s always in your hands but at the same time it’s not. You have managers and coaches, someone likes you, someone doesn’t like you. Sometimes it plays out like that and it played out that way with me.
“I played one game, got four minutes of ice time and then got sent down,” he said, referring to an Oct. 22 match against Phoenix
General consensus seemed to be that Horak didn't belong in the AHL and many were disappointed he was sent down.
Notice how pretty much all of those quotes involve a handful of players. That means we have several players that fill the organizational need. That means they are expendable. We got rid of 2 expendable players, giving development time to other prospects that can fill the void both Horak and Brossoit.
General consensus seemed to be that Horak didn't belong in the AHL and many were disappointed he was sent down.
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Knight Reinhart, Horak, Blair Jones and Ben Street are all touted to be Colborne level centres that are NHL ready but the Heat is not dominating the AHL.
I believe that was my quote. It kind of means that if these guys, Horak included, are so near to being in the NHL why are they not killing it in the AHL.
Horak was not delivering. I would have thought that he should be better than a ppg player at the AHL level seeing how well he did in the NHL as a 19 year old. He wasn't.
He did have the 15 game streak at for the Heat in October 2012 that he has not come close to repeating. Why not? His AHL stats line 13 games 2 goals and 7 pts -4 barely keeps him in the AHL.
For instance Blair Jones is a ppg player for the Heat as is to be expected. Knight is 14 pts in 16 games.
Horak wasn't playing himself into being the #1 recall.
General consensus seemed to be that Horak didn't belong in the AHL and many were disappointed he was sent down.
Brossoit was well thought of too.
You sure went through a lot of trouble there to dig through old quotes trying to prove that Flames fans are hypocrites, but there really isn't any quote there that suggests that Flames fans though Horak was hot stuff before the trade and then sucked after. Most Flames fans thought Horak was an NHL depth guy and that's about it. Again as another poster noted, these two were the 11th and 17th ranked prospects by this board, and this was before the season started. Both probably dropped after the season started as other prospects passed them. So your suggestion that Flames fans are hypocrites is not right, well, at least not in this case ;p.
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I read that quote and it tells us about zero on the Smid situation.
I think that the Feaster comments about them talking for 3 weeks prior to the deal and the Tencer comments indicate that the Smid trade was about Smid as a player and not them dumping him for salary concerns (especially since they didn't really have any) but if people think it was a salary dump that didn't have to do with Smid as a player they are free to think that.
Read the quote again...you said no GM would say they were going to trade X player (paraphrasing) in reference to the Smid/MacTavish situation. I am proving that you are wrong because the exact same GM you are talking about basically said that. So, yes it does tell you something about the Smid situation. Like others have said though, you seem to have problems admitting that you are wrong. So I am done.
You sure went through a lot of trouble there to dig through old quotes trying to prove that Flames fans are hypocrites, but there really isn't any quote there that suggests that Flames fans though Horak was hot stuff before the trade and then sucked after. Most Flames fans thought Horak was an NHL depth guy and that's about it. Again as another poster noted, these two were the 11th and 17th ranked prospects by this board, and this was before the season started. Both probably dropped after the season started as other prospects passed them. So your suggestion that Flames fans are hypocrites is not right, well, at least not in this case ;p.
Not much trouble at all.
All fan bases - the Flames, the Oilers, the Lightning, whatever - overrate their prosepects and that tends to stop as soon as the player leaves town.
I don't think anyone is a "hypocrite." Your word, not mine. My point was merely that it was interesting to see how a player goes from "he should be in the NHL" to "he is a career minor-leaguer" just because he's been traded.
This is not a Flames fan thing, this is a fan thing.
The minimal return the Oilers received for Ladislav Smid stunned some people. But ultimately, this will be decided by two things: How well Laurent Brossoit develops and what Edmonton does with the cap space. There weren't a ton of teams who knew Smid was available, either. One exec expressed surprise at hearing the trade, while another scout said he'd known for about two weeks. I had heard Washington was very interested, which makes sense. But that was denied (I was denied more this week than in all of high school - impressive feat).
Washington also had no cap space to take on Smid ... I think it's getting more and more clear that Edmonton was willing to trade him well below value (and to their biggest rival of all people!) simply because of the cap space. They must have wanted Bryz and that small amount of cap pretty badly.
Sure has been mentioned before, but this was really one of the "take advantage of our cap space" trades that Feaster was talking about all summer. Hoping to see more of those - cashing in on other teams' desperation. With two thirds of the league tight on cap space and some others operating on internal caps, I would hope there'll be some sweet trade opportunities along the way.
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General consensus seemed to be that Horak didn't belong in the AHL and many were disappointed he was sent down.
Didn't belong in the AHL or belonged on the Flames team? A bit of a difference.
Time after time we see young players tear it up in the AHL and people question why that player hasn't graduated to the NHL, Horak wasn't one of those players though. A lot of the argument of him being in the NHL stemmed from players like Jackman and Street drawing into the line up and not his own play. And especially with regards to the 31 year old Jackman, a lot of people just feel that any young player would have been better off on a rebuilding team.
I know I was iffy with the Colborne trade as I felt it took a spot away from one of the organization's "own" young players including Horak. But how telling is that when Horak 'lost' his spot to Colborne and fighting with Knight for play time in the AHL, both of which were brought over for a 4th round pick?
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Originally Posted by sureLoss
Friedman on the Smid trade:
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and what Edmonton does with the cap space.
What cap space Friedman? The non-bonus payroll is over 58M (with the multiple goalies), their bonuses exceed 9M. The bonus cushion can only count towards 7.5% of the cap, that means over 4M of those bonuses count towards the 'hard' cap. We've already seen what the Oilers did with the cap, they signed Bryzgalov.
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All fan bases - the Flames, the Oilers, the Lightning, whatever - overrate their prosepects and that tends to stop as soon as the player leaves town.
I don't think anyone is a "hypocrite." Your word, not mine. My point was merely that it was interesting to see how a player goes from "he should be in the NHL" to "he is a career minor-leaguer" just because he's been traded.
This is not a Flames fan thing, this is a fan thing.
Completely disagree. I'll ignore your cherry-picking and simply refer to the one piece of non-biased evidence that is readily available... the prospect vote that took place on these boards, prior to the trade.
Centres voted ahead of Horak: Monahan, Jankowski and Knight. Reinhart wasn't in the top 10 but he is regularly in the top 10 on external lists (this was posted and talked about at the time). And Reinhart's stock is rising.
Also, Granlund wasn't voted above him, but his stock has also been rising since he came over.
Then they acquired Colborne.
So, just since he summer, Monahan, Knight and Colborne have passed him on the depth chart, and Reinhart and Granlund are, at least, in the conversation.
If you want to look at wing, Poirier, Klimchuk, Agostino (in the voting), Galiardi and Bouma have passed him since the summer (if Bouma wasn't already ahead of him).
I didn't see anyone trashing Horak and most posters like him. But the general consensus is that he is being passed by lots of other prospects. I think I have illustrated that here.
As for Brossoit, I think most posters consider him a very good prospect. But he too was passed in camp when Ortio came over and impressed.
I think it would be hard to argue that the organizational rank of the goalies (ignoring MacDonald as he is experience, not the future) is:
Ramo and Berra
Ortio
Brossoit
And then there is Gillies, and CP is almost unanimous in believing that he is a better prospect than Brossoit.
That puts Brossoit 5th in the organization.
Correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I think I have accurately assessed where these guys were ranked BEFORE the trade.
Did people like Horak? Of course - he is a good prospect. I don't see anyone turning on him. But the general view has been that he has been passed and won't be missed. I think that is more of a reflection on how good the prospect pool is, not how anyone views Horak.
Last edited by Enoch Root; 11-11-2013 at 01:50 PM.
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Regarding the loss of Brossoit & Horak, I liked them both but I think we could very well have gotten peak value for them in Smid & Roy.
Horak was a great utility player but I agree that he became expendable with recent acquisitions. I hate to say players like him are a dime-a-dozen, but...
Brossoit posted exceptionally good numbers in junior playing with a very strong defensive team. He could be an NHL starter or he could be a minor league journeyman. It will be upsetting if he ends up being the next Martin Brodeur, but the chances of that are...
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I don't think Burke didn't like Smid I am just not sure that he had a big enough connection that it was him driving the bus on this deal.
I don't think NHL deals develop the way a lot of people on this forum think. It's not an individual GM/AGM/President going after a particular player. It's a management group working through a pool of potential candidates for a position.
So the team identifies a need (2nd pairing defensive d-man), and then the management collectively sits down and makes a list of 7 or 8 or 12 players who fit that need, the age profile they're looking for, and their salary structure. Then they talk them over, probably strike a few off the list as being unavailable, too expensive, not being a good fit, etc. With the remainder, they make some discreet inquiries to see who might be available. Then the GM does the leg work of making calls and working out proposals. Then he comes back to the group with the details of the deal he likes to see if there's agreement they should pull the trigger.
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I think it would be hard to argue that the organizational rank of the goalies (ignoring MacDonald as he is experience, not the future) is:
Ramo and Berra
Ortio
Brossoit
And then there is Gillies, and CP is almost unanimous in believing that he is a better prospect than Brossoit.
That puts Brossoit 5th in the organization.
Correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I think I have accurately assessed where these guys were ranked BEFORE the trade.
That all depends on what you consider a prospect. I don't see Ramo, or even Berra as true prospects. They're not young developing goalies who may turn into first-rate NHL starters for the Flames in the long run. They're professional European goalies coming over here for a shot at playing net for a year or two or three while the Flames are rebuilding. Goalies take a while to develop, but guys who are going to be real top goaltenders have usually shown something (more than Ramo or Berra anyway) by the time they're 26. It wouldn't surprise me at all if 20 months from now they're both back in Europe.
So in my mind, that left Ortio, Brossiot, and Gillies as true prospects. In my opinion, Gillies is clearly the best prospect among them, and the best prospects in the Flames organization outside of Monahan. And I don't think Ortio showed any clear separation from Brossoit. So I'd rank our goales prospects before the trade as:
1. Gillies
2A/2B. Ortio/Brossoit
I'm not against dealing Brossoit - goalie prospects were a strength with the Flames organization, and the deal met a need. But I do think there's a better chance right now that Brossoit, in the long run, turns into a better goalie than either Ramo or Berra, and about an equal chance as Ortio.
But I do think there's a better chance right now that Brossoit, in the long run, turns into a better goalie than either Ramo or Berra, and about an equal chance as Ortio.
I love Brossoit. Let me say that first.
However, look at the past goalie prospects the Flames have had - McElhinney and Irving. Both of these guys were blue-chippers. Both of them showed flashes of brilliance. Both of them are still young enough to eventually find their way in the NHL as starters, but at this point, it doesn't look great - especially for Irving.
Ramo and Berra, though they haven't been awesome, have shown flashes of being starters. Still have a bit of ways to go, but the odds that Brossoit gets to their position is low. I personally think he will, but odds are that it is low. Olivier Roy played in the WJC's, and was a highly regarded prospect - pretty sure everyone feels he is just a throw-in to balance contracts, and unless he starts showing something amazing will probably not be re-signed by the Flames. I do hope the best for Brossoit, but the odds that he will become as good as Ramo and Berra are low at this point, and thus the trade.
I am actually sorry to see them both go. I do think they are both legitimate prospects that could prosper - especially Horak. Everyone talks that Brossoit's future success is what could re-balance this deal in Edmonton's favor if he develops into a world-class starter, but Horak is a serviceable player that plays a sound 200ft game and has some upside still. He is very likely to be the only player that ends up seeing any amount of games for the Oilers. Strong character guy too.
Eakins is going to love this guy - he obviously knows how to play within systems and take directions from the coaching staff well, and I am sure he will go through the boards in trying to please Eakins. I bet he becomes a fixture on Edmonton's third line this season, if they end up trading Hemsky away somehow.
I don't see Ramo, or even Berra as true prospects. They're not young developing goalies who may turn into first-rate NHL starters for the Flames in the long run. They're professional European goalies coming over here for a shot at playing net for a year or two or three while the Flames are rebuilding. Goalies take a while to develop, but guys who are going to be real top goaltenders have usually shown something (more than Ramo or Berra anyway) by the time they're 26.
I would consider Berra to be a prospect. Wasn't Kipper 26 or 27 when he was traded to Calgary and got his first real shot as an NHL #1?
(Disclaimer: Not saying that Berra is the next Kipper)
I would consider Berra to be a prospect. Wasn't Kipper 26 or 27 when he was traded to Calgary and got his first real shot as an NHL #1?
He was. But I don't think anyone would regard Kipper's career trajectory as typical. That's why I said have top goalies have usually shown something by age 26.
