Ring Road To Nowhere

[polak]

I guess I never thought about it from the "charity" angle (dont know if thats the right word to use).

That makes me kind of okay with it. I have my doubts that a lump sum payment to all the band members is going to be an effective way of helping though, but Im assuming that part is out of the government hands?

[CaptainYooh]

I am happy that the west wing of the RR will finally proceed. I am not happy with the price of the deal at all.

No question, TTN cannot be faulted or blamed for negotiating the best deal possible for them. It is both the Province and the City that dropped the ball on this. I had a chance to speak to Lyle Oberg about the options for the RR in 2005 at a fundraiser and he said that the Province was considering a few grand plans of extending the RR to the 2A/Dundee Rd. intersection and would not finalize the deal until that goal was achieved. I told him that I thought this was destined to fail because of the multitude of complexities, to which he disagreed vehemently, first, but then said, get this, "we are in no rush". 50 years in the making and he was in no rush!

Even though this is not a City project, the City engineers did have several credible options including a bridge over Glenmore Reservoir or a tunnel under it that would not have required any cooperation from TTN. Yes, it would have been contentious from the point of negotiating with some Lakeview residents. But buying out affected homes in Lakeview even at a big premium would not have been nearly as expensive as what the Province is paying now to TTN in this deal. The Province did not want to touch Lakeview because of Ralph Klein's Lakeview connection, I think. The City mayors could and should have pushed more aggressively to get these options pushed through.

The deal is almost done now, let's hope it works out and the RR is completed at last. But boy, oh boy, at what cost to the taxpayers.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I am happy that the west wing of the RR will finally proceed. I am not happy with the price of the deal at all.

No question, TNN cannot be faulted or blamed for negotiating the best deal possible for them. It is both the Province and the City that dropped the ball on this. I had a chance to speak to Lyle Oberg about the options for the RR in 2005 at a fundraiser and he said that the Province was considering a few grand plans of extending the RR to the 2A/Dundee Rd. intersection and would not finalize the deal until that goal was achieved. I told him that I thought this was destined to fail because of the multitude of complexities, to which he disagreed vehemently, first, but then said, get this, "we are in no rush". 50 years in the making and he was in no rush!

Even though this is not a City project, the City engineers did have several credible options including a bridge over Glenmore Reservoir or a tunnel under it that would not have required any cooperation from TNN. Yes, it would have been contentious from the point of negotiating with some Lakeview residents. But buying out affected homes in Lakeview even at a big premium would not have been nearly as expensive as what the Province is paying now to TNN in this deal. The Province did not want to touch Lakeview because of Ralph Klein's Lakeview connection, I think. The City mayors could and should have pushed more aggressively to get these options pushed through.

The deal is almost done now, let's hope it works out and the RR is completed at last. But boy, oh boy, at what cost to the taxpayers.

There is no other option that would have been cheaper. Tunneling under the reservoir, or bridging over would be rediculously expensive, but the still doesn't complete the ring. You are still buying up homes in Lakeview and Glamorgan to squeeze the road through.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

There is no other option that would have been cheaper. Tunneling under the reservoir, or bridging over would be rediculously expensive, but the still doesn't complete the ring. You are still buying up homes in Lakeview and Glamorgan to squeeze the road through.

Do you honestly believe that a bridge would not have been cheaper??? Don't forget the huge amount of free land the Province is throwing in with the deal. Nobody is even mentioning the value of that land, present and future.

[KelVarnsen]

I've said it before, and I will say it again. A ring road that goes through a large portion of the city would have be a disaster.

[cral12]

Probably tucked away in this thread somewhere, but any links to the actual proposed route?

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by cral12

Probably tucked away in this thread somewhere, but any links to the actual proposed route?

I doubt they've kept any of those links alive, especially now when the new deal is almost done. The most viable, logical and affordable route was connecting through Lakeview.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by polak

I guess I never thought about it from the "charity" angle (dont know if thats the right word to use).

That makes me kind of okay with it. I have my doubts that a lump sum payment to all the band members is going to be an effective way of helping though, but Im assuming that part is out of the government hands?

The lump sum does not go directly to idividuals. Each voting member gets something like $70,000 lump sum- out of $270,000 "per person" that would have been alloted. So that allows people to have the cash to improve their situation, and most of the money goes to the reserve as a whole for other improvements.

So yes, the TTN government will be handling most of the money. Once again, another reason I like the deal. Their Chief looks to really have his peoples' best interests at heart; as opposed to some other First Nations where the Chief seems more interested in his own quality of life.

[KelVarnsen]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I doubt they've kept any of those links alive, especially now when the new deal is almost done. The most viable, logical and affordable route was connecting through Lakeview.

http://calgaryringroad.files.wordpre...embled_map.jpg

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Do you honestly believe that a bridge would not have been cheaper??? Don't forget the huge amount of free land the Province is throwing in with the deal. Nobody is even mentioning the value of that land, present and future.

The value of the land we are receiving is more valuable than the land the province is giving away - even though we are giving away 5 times as much.

And, yes, a bridge option over the reservoir would have been much more expensive. You are talking about a bridge that's well over a km long, you would have to buy up a bunch of property in Lakeview along Crowchild and Glenmore Trail, even more property in Glamorgan, and build an even longer distance of roadway then the approved plan.

We aren't talking about giving the nation a billion or more here, it's just 300 million. That gets eaten up really quickly when you have to start expropriating hundreds of houses, and building roads in a more expensive manner, never mind a ridiculously large bridge.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

The value of the land we are receiving is more valuable than the land the province is giving away - even though we are giving away 5 times as much.

And, yes, a bridge option over the reservoir would have been much more expensive. You are talking about a bridge that's well over a km long, you would have to buy up a bunch of property in Lakeview along Crowchild and Glenmore Trail, even more property in Glamorgan, and build an even longer distance of roadway then the approved plan.

We aren't talking about giving the nation a billion or more here, it's just 300 million. That gets eaten up really quickly when you have to start expropriating hundreds of houses, and building roads in a more expensive manner, never mind a ridiculously large bridge.

The value of the land we are receiving is the same as the land we are giving away. This land becomes 4-5 times more valuable only AFTER the deal is consummated. At present, it is is the TTN's land for park land.

A 1 km bridge is not cheap, yes, but it would not have been more expensive, I am convinced of that. People at the City I spoke to all believed that it was reasonable from a cost perspective. Tunnel would have been more expensive, yes, but again, likely cheaper than the present deal.

I recall a number of 45 homes in Lakeview and similar number of homes in Glamorgan being discussed. Say, a 100. 50M to 100M additional cost, at best. And this would just go into the price of the ROW required. Significantly less expensive than what the Province has agreed to pay now.

And Calgary could have had an architecturally beautiful major scale bridge to be proud of as a city.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by cral12

Probably tucked away in this thread somewhere, but any links to the actual proposed route?

These were released yesterday (dated August 22): http://www.transportation.alberta.ca...ing%20Road.pdf

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I doubt they've kept any of those links alive, especially now when the new deal is almost done. The most viable, logical and affordable route was connecting through Lakeview.

Look at how much land this is going to require. It's a long-term plan for this road to be a high-capacity high-speed freeway. To replicate that and remain entirely inside the existing city limits, would have required the demolition of a significant percentage of Cedarbrae, Oakridge, Lakeview, and Glamorgan (plus, likely some land in Lincoln Park around MRU) it would have been hundreds of homes, if not in excess of 1000.

Anything less would have required a significant reduction in the capacity and speed of the road and would still would have required close to 200 homes minimum in those adjacent communities. Bridging the Weaselhead would have brought up environmental concerns and required restrictions on dangerous goods transportation similar to what already exists for the Glenmore Causeway.

The more compromises to the design that are made, the fewer homes would need to be purchased, but obviously, that reduces the ability of the road to serve its purpose. I believe I read once that a 37th Street compromise that still met the minimum requirements of the ring road would have required the purchase and demolition of 500-800 houses.

If they could do it with 500 houses and paid a slight premium price of $750,000 per home (there are 4 houses currently listed in west Lakeview, all in the $600,000-700,000 range), it would cost $375M. That doesn't include the time and effort to negotiate 500 home purchases, and the cost of demolishing all those houses before work can even begin.


This deal saves all of those houses and only required negotiating with one land owner and the land is pretty much empty right now, so prep work will be minimal.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by getbak

...

This deal saves all of those houses and only required negotiating with one land owner and the land is pretty much empty right now, so prep work will be minimal.

See my post above on the alternative route costing. I always thought that there was a lot of unjustified fear-mongering on the community and environmental impact of going the 37th St route. It would have been some disturbance in the short-term that would have been quickly forgotten.

On the part quoted above, the rationale is understandable. But it is that same "no compromise" way that Oberg was using - if it's not perfect, it's not acceptable. TransCanada is pretty ####ty between Lake Louise and Sicamous but it is there for everyone's use and when the time is right, it will be upgraded. The in-city solution was there all along and the Province kept looking for a perfect one for so many years, while people in the Southwest had to suffer in traffic every day.

All of this is irrelevant at this point, of course. As I said, I am happy it is going ahead, just sorry about the cost being so much higher than it could have been.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Even though this is not a City project, the City engineers did have several credible options including a bridge over Glenmore Reservoir or a tunnel under it that would not have required any cooperation from TTN. Yes, it would have been contentious from the point of negotiating with some Lakeview residents. But buying out affected homes in Lakeview even at a big premium would not have been nearly as expensive as what the Province is paying now to TTN in this deal.

This is horribly wrong.

[CaptainYooh]

To add: one day the Providence area will be home for 50,000 to 100,000 new residents. By that time the new ring road will be required to go along 22/22X anyway. So, the earlier proposed 37th St route would have served just fine for the next 30-50 years even with some capacity limitations.

[Acey]

What about the estimates of $1B per kilometer for a tunnel wide enough to carry the ultimate plans? When you consider the massively increased costs of building it through the city that are a separate issue from land acquisition, the scales tip back in favour of the province.

[You Need a Thneed]

Sorry, CaptainYooh, there's no chance. Draw a 100m wide corridor through there, with a wide radius curve, and you'll see that there is just no way.

The city could build a road nowhere near ring road standards, with no connection to the Ring road along Glenmore, for perhaps the same price. However, the province wouldn't be paying for that, which means it has no chance of happening.

[CaptainYooh]

I know you are involved in transportation planning or engineering in some way and speak with knowledge of the subject. However; my information is not from Calgary Sun either. The alternate routes were discussed at the level of Owen Tobert and Mac Logan at that time and the costs were touted as acceptable/affordable/reasonable.

[Regulator75]

[Acey]

The total area of the Sarcee/Glenmore interchange is crazy. I'd also like to see what the province is planning for Macleod and at 22X, to confirm that it's the same as old drawings we've seen.