Iginla vs. Nieuwendyk: Who was the better player?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by JD

I guess Pittsburgh and Boston wouldn't be considered elite, then. Now you're just making stuff up.

I knew someone would pounce upon this very small piece of the post and attempt to twist it's meaning. The subject of the sentence is the price the teams paid, not their interest in a top player.

Nieuwendyk commanded Iginla in a trade once, and Jason Arnott and a 1st in another.

Again, this is the delusion that permeates this discussion, that somehow saying Iginla is not up to the standard of Nieuwendyk is throwing Iginla in the trash.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Kind of sad to see someone think he has to break one player down to build up another player. No one is saying Nieuwendyk is a bad player, not even close to that.

Resolute had a great post above, read it.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I knew someone would pounce upon this very small piece of the post and attempt to twist it's meaning.

Said the pot to the effing kettle.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You're missing 3 significant trophies from Nieuwendyk's case.

The 'stacked' team argument is for me, the worst.

The "stacked team" argument is no worse than the "he won three Cups" argument. Also, I didn't miss them, I alluded to them when I brought up international team success. The central point of my argument, however, was individual comaprison.

What does it say when two stacked teams go out of their way and pay a big price, to acquire a player who just happens to push them over the top to win the championship?

What does it say that New Jersey had already won championships a couple years earlier? Can you say that Niewuendyk actually pushed the Devils over the top?

Is this just some huge accident that Stanley Cup teams were falling all over themselves, trading players like Iginla and Arnott, for some schmuck of a third line centre that never made anyone around him better? Did Nieuwendyk just luck into being the second highest scorer in the playoffs for Dallas the year they won the cup?

Now you're just getting pissy. Also, it is hilarious that you whine about people using what-ifs later in your post, yet rely on a strawman argument here (unless, of course, you can show me where people are calling Niewuendyk a "schmuck of a third line center that never made anyone around him better" - and before you waste your breath and my time, I never said Nieuwendyk did not make anyone better. I said only that I can't think of anyone, and asked if you could.)

There is a corollary here. Good players can play for crap teams, and crap players can play for good teams, but guys don't win multiple cups on multiple teams as key contributors by accident. That's the domain of great players.

Sure, but that does not make for an effective trump card. Joe Nieuwendyk did not make the low-budget Flames any better than Iginla did.

You know what is one of the things that made these teams stacked? Having Nieuwendyk on their rosters.

Another strawman. Joe Nieuwendyk is no more individually capable of making a team stacked than Jarome Iginla is. Look for the word team and spend some time considering what it means.

Relying on these kinds of 'could've reviewed the goal', 'would've won the Conn' (highly, highly debatable btw), 'should've won the Hart' sort of illustrates the meat of the issue. The hypotheticals are needed to give weight to the argument against Nieuwendyk's actual accomplishment.

It says a great deal about your frame of mind in this debate that you ignore the numerous accolades that Iginla earned but Nieuwendyk did not, only to focus on Iginla's getting screwed out of the Hart. That is also an argumentative fallacy. It's called cherry picking. But you are right, Iginla did not win the trophy. But he came far, far closer than Nieuwendyk ever did.

Anyway, I look forward to reading your next cherry picked reply.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I don't rate occasionally hitting and fighting nearly as important elements as consistent checking and defensive play. And the number of seasons in his career when Iginla consistently finished his checks could be counted on one hand with a couple fingers to spare. When I talk about all-around play, I mean as good without the pick or defending a lead as with the puck.

Well CliffFletcher, we'll agree to disagree here. I generally enjoy your posts, we just don't see eye-to-eye on this. Fighting was an exclamation point on Iginla's physical game, it didn't define it. He was consistently one of the NHL best power forwards before he became one of the best forwards. His scoring and 96 point season put him on the map but he was a very capable two-way guy before that.

Let's not forget, that while people are consistently pointing to Joe's faceoff abilities here (which were amazing) Iginla was great on the faceoff dot as well, constantly taking key draws. The ability to win a face off was is a notch in Iginla's belt too, despite being a winger.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I've never argued that this comparison is a blowout, but the numbers argue that Iginla is the better offensive player.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Also, we well know how Iginla turned Craig Conroy from a checking-line centre into a 70 point player. IMO, he was also the one driving the bus on Cammalleri's 50-goal season. Did Nieuwendyk make anyone better like that? (this, btw, is not a flippant question. But I can't think of anyone offhand.)

With Niewendyk centering him, Hakan Loob had a 50 goal season. His previous high was 37.

Gary Roberts blossomed as an goal-scorer (which he wasn't projected to be when he was drafted as a grinder) playing on the wing with Niewendyk, scoring his career high of 53 goals.

I'd hardly call the Dallas Stars teams he played on 'stacked'. And he was the 2nd best player on those teams, after Modano.

Here are the top 5 scorers on the Stars the season after Niewendyk joined them:

Modano 83
Verbeek 53
Niewendyk 51
Sydor 48
Hogue 43

And the season they won the Cup:

Modano 81
Hull 58
Niewendyk 55
Lehtinen 52
Zubov 51

Niewendyk's linemates that season were Langenbrunner (45 pts) and Dave Reid (17 pts)

Niewendyk helped those teams by playing big minutes against top opponents, and limiting their effectiveness. For the younger chaps here, think of him as a bigger, 30 goal-scoring Yelle. Having Niewendyk as a 1A or 2 centered enabled his teams to get great matchups for the other top guy (whether that was Gilmour, Modano, or Gomez).

It's also worth remembering there was a semi-public players revolt on the Stars after they traded Niewendyk. How often do you see that?

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

There is also the trophy case.

Nieuwendyk won the Calder. Iginla finished second in his rookie year. Both made their respective All-Rookie Teams. Both have won the Clancy. As mentioned, Nieuwendyk has a Conn Smythe, while Iginla fell one un-reviewed goal short.

I don't know why people are assuming Iginla was a shoe-in for the Conn Smythe. I don't think anyone in the league believed the Flames would have made the Finals without Kipprusoff standing on his head. I've always assumed Kipper would have won the Conn Smyth.

Again, the difference to me is the two-way play and effectiveness post-peak. For the last six or seven seasons of his career, Niewendyk was a 3/5 offense and and 4/5 defense. Unless Iginla completely transforms his game, the last six to seven years of his career will be 4/5 offense and 2/5 defense.

[Phanuthier]

I believe Nieuwendyk made Langenbruner a lot better. Probably not to the same extent Iginla did with Conroy/Cammalleri.

I was too young to see Nieuwy circa Flames... Iginla, I was proud he was a Flame. Pre-2007, Iginla was a great 2 way player (2006, 9th in Selke voting?).... played the PK, everything. After Mike Keenan came in, Iginla was a one-way player. Brent Sutter, he was indifferent. By the time Bob Hartley came, the tires were falling off and Iginla was really in a shadow of his former self.

If you ask me about 2001-2007 Iginla, I would say very few match up to that... only Jagr, Forsberg was really comparable. Todd Bertuzzi too while with the Canucks, but I guess many arn't a fan of him... so Bertuzzi is no slight as for a while, he was a premium power forward. But post-Mike Keenan... I think significantly less of his play....

[Flash Walken]

I'm not ignoring his accolades. I've already said his peak is higher than Nieuwendyk's, and if it's unclear, I think Iginla is the superior offensive player. I just don't think it's miles apart like others seem to believe. I think Nieuwendyk is right there with Iginla, which combined with two-way play is what puts him over the edge.

My argument with you Resolute is that using what-if's as part of a defense of a player is ridiculous. Let the comparison stand on the merits of achievement, not 'what could have beens'. Nieuwendyk had trouble staying healthy, Iginla has stayed healthy the majority of his career. Let's stick to those sorts of comparisons rather than the what if scenarios that best favour each player.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I believe Nieuwendyk made Langenbruner a lot better. Probably not to the same extent Iginla did with Conroy/Cammalleri.

I was too young to see Nieuwy circa Flames... Iginla, I was proud he was a Flame. Pre-2007, Iginla was a great 2 way player (2006, 9th in Selke voting?).... played the PK, everything. After Mike Keenan came in, Iginla was a one-way player. Brent Sutter, he was indifferent. By the time Bob Hartley came, the tires were falling off and Iginla was really in a shadow of his former self.

If you ask me about 2001-2007 Iginla, I would say very few match up to that... only Jagr, Forsberg was really comparable. Todd Bertuzzi too while with the Canucks, but I guess many arn't a fan of him... so Bertuzzi is no slight as for a while, he was a premium power forward. But post-Mike Keenan... I think significantly less of his play....

2005-2006 Iginla is the best I ever saw.

Edit: aside from rounds 1 and 2 Playoffs 2004.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

2005-2006 Iginla is the best I ever saw.

Edit: aside from rounds 1 and 2 Playoffs 2004.

Iginla 2002 Olympics, and of coarse 2004 playoffs for me.
Iginla's gold medal game in 2002 was incredible.... will never forget that. I think its better than "the shift" ...

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Iginla 2002 Olympics, and of coarse 2004 playoffs for me.
Iginla's gold medal game in 2002 was incredible.... will never forget that. I think its better than "the shift" ...

See, I see that game as super sayan Sakic.

I don't know if I've ever seen a player like Sakic in that game.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Nieuwendyk has a Conn Smythe, while Iginla fell one un-reviewed goal short.

You are stretching big time here. There would be no goal after review, as all the reviews were inconclusive. Even if that goal was counted, which is a big stretch already, Tampa still could tie the game. Even if the Flames won the Cup, it is very debateble, whether it would be Iginla or Kipper to get Conn Smythe. Iginla just simple didn't win Conn Smythe and Joe Nieuwendyk did. Move on. Using the same methodology I could say that Nieuwendyk was one play (the one that injured his knee in 1991) away from being in the same class, as Sakic and Yzerman.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I've never argued that this comparison is a blowout, but the numbers argue that Iginla is the better offensive player.

They also played different roles, nevermind different positions.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by JD

I guess Pittsburgh and Boston wouldn't be considered elite, then.

Pittsbourgh gave up next to nothing for Iginla. Iginla was underwhelming in playoffs, his team lost in semifinals and Iginla was not extended after his lackluster performance.

Compare that to how Nieuwendyk performed on elite teams.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Kind of sad to see someone think he has to break one player down to build up another player.

Or someone think he has to break down another poster to build up his favorite player. This thread can only be interesting if we focus on bringing up positive facts, stories and achievements about two of the Flames all-times greats.

So, for those who think that Nieuwendyk was just a piece on stacked teams, here are some quotes from the staff of said teams:

"What he did to our franchise in Dallas took our team in a direction of excellence," Button said. "There is not a lot of pomp and circumstance to him, just a whole lot of substance."

"Whenever you talked to him, whether it was at a practice, in your office, or just off-handed, he was always on top of what he was doing. You never saw Joe being frivolous. He had a good sense of humor, but he was always focused. You just knew Nieuwy was on the ball. He always had it together." -- Terry Crisp

"He brought both tangibles and intangibles," Devils GM and Hockey Hall of Fame member Lou Lamoriello told NHL.com. "Certainly (the tangibles were) the quality player he was even at that time, how good he was defensively as well as always finding a way to get big goals. It was also about how good he was on faceoffs. And the intangibles, which are really more tangible than anything, are what he brought in the locker room from leadership and unselfishness. It was obvious that when he didn't play he was still so active in his support. He's genuine in every sense of the word. He was a true team player."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=599887&print=true

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Or someone think he has to break down another poster to build up his favorite player.

Not at all, I think it's perfectly reasonable to bring someones bias into play though.

For the record, Iginla probably makes it into top 5 fav Flames of all time, not number one though. Way too big of a MacInnis and Roberts fan boy.

[Diet Water]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Pittsbourgh gave up next to nothing for Iginla. Iginla was underwhelming in playoffs, his team lost in semifinals and Iginla was not extended after his lackluster performance.

Compare that to how Nieuwendyk performed on elite teams.

Considering Iginla's age when he was finally traded to a contender it would be fair to compare that to Niuwendyk's time with NJ.

He had 1 point in the playoffs during his first year with the Devils, his second year he finished tied for 9th on the team and was -2 while not playing any of the SCF games. Niuwendyk was not a member of the team the following year.

It's fair to say Iginla was underwhelming, but those words could also be used to describe Niuwendyk with NJ.

[Pointman]

Speaking of "stacked teams". Were 1999 Stars any more stacked then post-lockout Flames?

1999 Stars goalscorers were:

Modano 34
Hull 32
Nieuwendyk 28
Lehtinen 20
Verbeek 18

2006/07 Flames had:

Iginla 39
Huselius 34
Langkow 33
Tanguay 22
Lombardi 20

It could be argued that Iginla played on cap team and couldn't get them past round 1.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Diet Water

Considering Iginla's age when he was finally traded to a contender it would be fair to compare that to Niuwendyk's time with NJ.

He had 1 point in the playoffs during his first year with the Devils, his second year he finished tied for 9th on the team and was -2 while not playing any of the SCF games. Niuwendyk was not a member of the team the following year.

It's fair to say Iginla was underwhelming, but those words could also be used to describe Niuwendyk with NJ.

As opposite to old Iginla, old Nieuwendyk was bringing a hell more than just points (to be fair, in-his-prime Iginla was hardworking and well-rounded as well).

[haiku]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Speaking of "stacked teams". Were 1999 Stars any more stacked then post-lockout Flames?

1999 Stars goalscorers were:

Modano 34
Hull 32
Nieuwendyk 28
Lehtinen 20
Verbeek 18

2006/07 Flames had:

Iginla 39
Huselius 34
Langkow 33
Tanguay 22
Lombardi 20

It could be argued that Iginla played on cap team and couldn't get them past round 1.

top three goals all time
but it's like everyone says
hull's a poor man's Juice

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by JD

This is downright ridiculous and insulting. But sure, if someone doesn't agree with you it must be because they're misinformed.

Where did I say that? But surely some of the people here advocating for Iginla are younger than 40 and don't remember Niewendyk breaking into the league.

Originally Posted by JD

Again, they were both great players. They had very different careers. But the notion that it's Nieuwendyk and not even close is absolutely absurd.

I didn't say that either. If you actually read my posts, I've said IMHO it's very close, but Niewendyk edges Iginla for his overall play.