Iginla vs. Nieuwendyk: Who was the better player?

[albertGQ]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Nieuwendyk was the third fastest player to reach 100 goals milestone, behind Bossy and Maurice Richard, and was the third player in league history to score 50 goals in each of his first two seasons (along with Bossy and Wayne Gretzky). He also led the league with 11 game-winning goals. If that's not "elite level", I don't know what is. Nieuwendyk was phenomenal before his first knee injury.

Selanne was faster than Nieuwendyk

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by albertGQ

Selanne was faster than Nieuwendyk

True, I meant Niewendyk was third in his time. Selanne was later.

[CliffFletcher]

I get the impression a lot of the Iginla advocates here didn't watch Niewendyk break into the league. Before his knee injury, he was a phenomenal pure goal scorer. The fact he changed his game after the injury to become an elite two-way player is a plus in his ledger, not a minus.

When Iginla isn't scoring, he doesn't bring much to the table. Whereas Niewendyk into his 30s was relied on as a top-flight defensive centre, and still chipped in timely goals at a rate not far behind late-career Iginla.

At his peak, Iginla was the better goal-scorer. But outside those peak years, he was not the all-around player that Niewendyk was. I'll take an elite two-way centre who scores 30 goals, wins face-offs, kills penalties, and comes up big in the play-offs over a 40 goal sniper every day of the week.

[JD]

You're being equally unfair to Iginla in his prime. He was an effective penalty-killer, he was physical, wore down the other team, and he fought and defended his teammates.

Iginla was much, much more than just a sniper. Again, don't let his last couple years cloud that.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I get the impression a lot of the Iginla advocates here didn't watch Niewendyk break into the league. Before his knee injury, he was a phenomenal pure goal scorer. The fact he changed his game after the injury to become an elite two-way player is a plus in his ledger, not a minus.

When Iginla isn't scoring, he doesn't bring much to the table. Whereas Niewendyk into his 30s was relied on as a top-flight defensive centre, and still chipped in timely goals at a rate not far behind late-career Iginla.

At his peak, Iginla was the better goal-scorer. But outside those peak years, he was not the all-around player that Niewendyk was. I'll take an elite two-way centre who scores 30 goals, wins face-offs, kills penalties, and comes up big in the play-offs over a 40 goal sniper every day of the week.

This is a picture perfect example of people only remembering the latter stages of Iginla in Calgary and forgetting the rest.

Only a goal scorer and that's it? Just a silly thing to say.

[Huntingwhale]

Actually, there was plenty of talk before, during, and after the '04 lockout that Iginla was the best all-round player in the league.

[SuperMatt18]

From 01/02 to 05/06 Iginla was one of the top all around players in the League. It was once Darryl Sutter moved on from coaching that his decline to "pure offensive player" began.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Actually, there was plenty of talk before, during, and after the '04 lockout that Iginla was the best all-round player in the league.

To be quite honest, Iginla's so-called "peak" is essentially two seasons: 2001/02 and 2003/04. He was, indeed, arguably top all-around player in those two seasons. His 2002/03 season was pretty underwhelming. Post-lockout it was all about Crosby/Ovechkin. He was still elite for sure, but the "talk" of him arguably being the best in the league was for just two seasons.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Pointman

To be quite honest, Iginla's so-called "peak" is essentially two seasons: 2001/02 and 2003/04. He was, indeed, arguably top all-around player in those two seasons. His 2002/03 season was pretty underwhelming. Post-lockout it was all about Crosby/Ovechkin. He was still elite for sure, but the "talk" of him arguably being the best in the league was for just two seasons.

And always with other names in the conversation, forsberg and injuries, jagr lacking motivation, Scott Stevens and the comparison between offensive and defensive players...

It doesn't diminish his accomplishments, it diminishes the argument that he was unquestionably the best player. It diminishes the argument here that thus far it is iginlas remarkable 36 month peak as a player that separates and elevates him from a career of consistent contribution and winning across divergent criteria that also arguably saw a greater peak, perhaps not relative to other superstars in the peak, but in a direct comparison of personal statistics.

Jarome was a dominating 2 way presense for less than 2 full seasons. Hitting and fighting are great attributes to have in an offense player, but they should never be used to illustrate a complete game when the decisive factor in that determination is defensive contributions to winning hockey games.

That nieuwendyk is likely the better clutch player only further serves to widen the divide.

It's no accident that the elite teams continued to vie for nieuwendyk's services and were rewarded by bringing him in.

[Laner99]

Originally Posted by stemit14

I hate when people use his lack if Stanley cups as a reason for iginla being a lesser player... I would think this is the last place where I would have to remind people of the biggest missed goal call in hockey history during game 6 of the 2004 Stanley cup final. What he did in the 2004 playoffs was legendary and is still considered one of the greatest playoff performances OF ALL TIME! I still get chills watching what conroy called "The greatest shift ever played".

Your the first person I have ever heard say that playoff performance was one of the "best of all time".

Trust me, I love Iggy way more but he fell short. Didn't bring home the cup in Calgary. Now let's watch him wither away as he try's to chase the dream as a 2nd liner in Boston.....

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

This is a picture perfect example of people only remembering the latter stages of Iginla in Calgary and forgetting the rest.

Only a goal scorer and that's it? Just a silly thing to say.

I don't rate occasionally hitting and fighting nearly as important elements as consistent checking and defensive play. And the number of seasons in his career when Iginla consistently finished his checks could be counted on one hand with a couple fingers to spare. When I talk about all-around play, I mean as good without the pick or defending a lead as with the puck.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Laner99

Your the first person I have ever heard say that playoff performance was one of the "best of all time".

Trust me, I love Iggy way more but he fell short. Didn't bring home the cup in Calgary. Now let's watch him wither away as he try's to chase the dream as a 2nd liner in Boston.....

You have to understand that the NHL experience of a lot of folks here is confined to the Flames from the late 90s to now. I'm betting a lot of the folks saying Iginla was unquestionably better than Niewendyk never even saw Niewendyk play for the Flames, let alone paid any attention to what he did subsequently in his career.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You have to understand that the NHL experience of a lot of folks here is confined to the Flames from the late 90s to now. I'm betting a lot of the folks saying Iginla was unquestionably better than Niewendyk never even saw Niewendyk play for the Flames, let alone paid any attention to what he did subsequently in his career.

Two questions
Who are your top 10-15 Flames?
Do you know Iginla was very much a complete player for many years and his fall into only being an offensive guy is why people, myself included, grew frustrated with him?

[カナダ人です]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

In his final 13 seasons Nieuwendyk cracked 30 goals twice.

You miscounted. It was his final 12 seasons. But anyway, that is a pretty misleading stat. During that time he also cracked 70 games in a season twice. Joe had quite a few injury troubles.

In addition to 96-97 (30 goals in 66 games) and 97-98 (39 goals in 73 games) Nieuwy put up:

21 goals in 46 games in 94-95 (80 games pace = 37 goals)
28 goals in 67 games in 98-99 (80 game pace = 33 goals)
29 goals in 69 games in 00-01 (80 game pace = 34 goals)
26 goals in 65 games in 05-06 (80 game pace = 32 goals)

[GGG]

Originally Posted by カナダ人です

You miscounted. It was his final 12 seasons. But anyway, that is a pretty misleading stat. During that time he also cracked 70 games in a season twice. Joe had quite a few injury troubles.

In addition to 96-97 (30 goals in 66 games) and 97-98 (39 goals in 73 games) Nieuwy put up:

21 goals in 46 games in 94-95 (80 games pace = 37 goals)
28 goals in 67 games in 98-99 (80 game pace = 33 goals)
29 goals in 69 games in 00-01 (80 game pace = 34 goals)
26 goals in 65 games in 05-06 (80 game pace = 32 goals)

So what your saying is that Iggy's durability also made him better than Joe.

[stemit14]

Originally Posted by Laner99

Your the first person I have ever heard say that playoff performance was one of the "best of all time".

Trust me, I love Iggy way more but he fell short. Didn't bring home the cup in Calgary. Now let's watch him wither away as he try's to chase the dream as a 2nd liner in Boston.....

I think you need to watch those playoffs again. Iginla was part of nearly every goal that the flames scored in those playoffs. Everyone knew it was down to him or kipper for the conne smythe. He was robbed of his Stanley cup and everyone knows it. Look up that goal on YouTube and listen to how shocked even the lightning announcers are that the refs are dropping the puck cause even they thought that puck was in.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

A poster posited that Iginla was the greatest goalscorer of the Dead Puck Era, a position I disagreed on. I argued that Nieuwendyk likely has a similar goals total over that same amount of time (the aforementioned 'Dead Puck Era') and likely had a higher goals per game.

You've compared Iginla's entire career to that of Joe's waning offensive days, and the comparison doesn't look that great.

Even with crediting Iginla with his most fruitful offensive seasons compared to Nieuwendyk's offensive decline, Nieuwendyk is still only .06 off of Iginla's Career goals per game total? This is somehow a dominant statistic?

Is the argument really that Iginla's entire goal scoring career is only .06 better than Nieuwendyk's declining offensive years during the lowest scoring period in hockey? At 37, Nieuwendyk put up 22 goals in 64 games when a Prime Iginla was scoring 41 in 81.

In 2005-2006, Nieuwendyk at 39 and utterly broken down scored 9 less goals than Iginla in 17 less games.

Well, most of this is between you and the other poster, I mainly just gave the numbers. But for all you want to argue that Niewuendyk was "waning", the truth is, this time frame encompasses most of Joe's prime as well, so please stop being disingenuous with the "Nieuwendyk's decline vs. Iginla's prime" argument.

I would also point to the caveats, which you completely glossed over - the fact that Niewuendyk played on vastly superior teams. Teams with better players to draw off top opposing defencemen, and to set up more goals for Nieuwendyk to both score and assist on.

I've never argued that this comparison is a blowout, but the numbers argue that Iginla is the better offensive player. Also, we well know how Iginla turned Craig Conroy from a checking-line centre into a 70 point player. IMO, he was also the one driving the bus on Cammalleri's 50-goal season. Did Nieuwendyk make anyone better like that? (this, btw, is not a flippant question. But I can't think of anyone offhand.)

There is also the trophy case.

Nieuwendyk won the Calder. Iginla finished second in his rookie year. Both made their respective All-Rookie Teams. Both have won the Clancy. As mentioned, Nieuwendyk has a Conn Smythe, while Iginla fell one un-reviewed goal short.

After that, the comparisons end. Iginla has been named to four post-season All-Star teams. Nieuwendyk, zero. Nieuwendyk was named to play in four All-Star Games. Iginla has played in six, turned down a seventh, was injured for an eighth, and would have played two or three more if not for Olympic breaks. Nieuwendyk never led the league in goals or points. Iginla has, twice and once respectively. Iginla won the Lester B. Pearson and was jobbed out of the Hart. Iginla won the NHL Foundation award. He also won the Messier, but that one is irrelevant since Nieuwendyk's career ended prior to its creation.

For those that trumpet the Stanley Cup/team success argument, Iginla has two Olympic Golds to Nieuwendyk's one. Iginla also has a WJHC, WHC and world Cup title, against Nieuwendyk's lone silver medal at the worlds.

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CliffFletcher - I grew up on the 80s/90s Flames. Watched both players throughout their entire careers. We were extremely fortunate to have both. But of the two, Iginla was better.

[JD]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It's no accident that the elite teams continued to vie for nieuwendyk's services and were rewarded by bringing him in.

I guess Pittsburgh and Boston wouldn't be considered elite, then. Now you're just making stuff up.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You have to understand that the NHL experience of a lot of folks here is confined to the Flames from the late 90s to now. I'm betting a lot of the folks saying Iginla was unquestionably better than Niewendyk never even saw Niewendyk play for the Flames, let alone paid any attention to what he did subsequently in his career.

This is downright ridiculous and insulting. But sure, if someone doesn't agree with you it must be because they're misinformed.

Again, they were both great players. They had very different careers. But the notion that it's Nieuwendyk and not even close is absolutely absurd.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by JD

I guess Pittsburgh and Boston wouldn't be considered elite, then. Now you're just making stuff up..

That is a pretty damning line by Flash, thanks for quoting it and pointing out how ridiculous it is. Iginla, at 36, is still being sought after by top teams. This "point" by Flash just goes to show what an over-the-top bias and blinding hate he has for Jarome Iginla. We all know it of course but lines like that just keep adding to the ever expanding pile of evidence.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Well, most of this is between you and the other poster, I mainly just gave the numbers. But for all you want to argue that Niewuendyk was "waning", the truth is, this time frame encompasses most of Joe's prime as well, so please stop being disingenuous with the "Nieuwendyk's decline vs. Iginla's prime" argument.

I would also point to the caveats, which you completely glossed over - the fact that Niewuendyk played on vastly superior teams. Teams with better players to draw off top opposing defencemen, and to set up more goals for Nieuwendyk to both score and assist on.

I've never argued that this comparison is a blowout, but the numbers argue that Iginla is the better offensive player. Also, we well know how Iginla turned Craig Conroy from a checking-line centre into a 70 point player. IMO, he was also the one driving the bus on Cammalleri's 50-goal season. Did Nieuwendyk make anyone better like that? (this, btw, is not a flippant question. But I can't think of anyone offhand.)

There is also the trophy case.

Nieuwendyk won the Calder. Iginla finished second in his rookie year. Both made their respective All-Rookie Teams. Both have won the Clancy. As mentioned, Nieuwendyk has a Conn Smythe, while Iginla fell one un-reviewed goal short.

After that, the comparisons end. Iginla has been named to four post-season All-Star teams. Nieuwendyk, zero. Nieuwendyk was named to play in four All-Star Games. Iginla has played in six, turned down a seventh, was injured for an eighth, and would have played two or three more if not for Olympic breaks. Nieuwendyk never led the league in goals or points. Iginla has, twice and once respectively. Iginla won the Lester B. Pearson and was jobbed out of the Hart. Iginla won the NHL Foundation award. He also won the Messier, but that one is irrelevant since Nieuwendyk's career ended prior to its creation.

For those that trumpet the Stanley Cup/team success argument, Iginla has two Olympic Golds to Nieuwendyk's one. Iginla also has a WJHC, WHC and world Cup title, against Nieuwendyk's lone silver medal at the worlds.

-----------------------

CliffFletcher - I grew up on the 80s/90s Flames. Watched both players throughout their entire careers. We were extremely fortunate to have both. But of the two, Iginla was better.

You're missing 3 significant trophies from Nieuwendyk's case.

The 'stacked' team argument is for me, the worst.

What does it say when two stacked teams go out of their way and pay a big price, to acquire a player who just happens to push them over the top to win the championship?

Is this just some huge accident that Stanley Cup teams were falling all over themselves, trading players like Iginla and Arnott, for some schmuck of a third line centre that never made anyone around him better? Did Nieuwendyk just luck into being the second highest scorer in the playoffs for Dallas the year they won the cup?

There is a corollary here. Good players can play for crap teams, and crap players can play for good teams, but guys don't win multiple cups on multiple teams as key contributors by accident. That's the domain of great players.

You know what is one of the things that made these teams stacked? Having Nieuwendyk on their rosters.

Relying on these kinds of 'could've reviewed the goal', 'would've won the Conn' (highly, highly debatable btw), 'should've won the Hart' sort of illustrates the meat of the issue. The hypotheticals are needed to give weight to the argument against Nieuwendyk's actual accomplishment.

Point: Nieuwendyk won the Conn Smythe. Counter-Point: Iginla might have won the Conn Smythe had a favourable goal review happened and the team had held on for the rest of the period.

This comparison should be obvious for what it is.