How are the other top picks doing?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think it's fair when you pick a consensus 2nd round pick or later player in the 1st round. The NHL is no different than any other league in that when a team goes off the board at the draft they are criticized. Some teams redeem themselves if that pick turns out to be a good player but most teams have to live with the criticism because the reaches don't pan out. They rarely do that's why they are called a 'reach' as you are going against the consensus. The consensus is never always right but they are right more than they are wrong.

Personally I'm not losing sleep over the whole Jankowski pick but it's fair game for McKenzie to say what he did. Until Jankowski does anything in the NHL it's fair criticism. We would be making fun of the Oilers right now if the shoe was on the other foot. I still make fun of them for picking Moroz with the 31st pick in that draft. It's fair.

Only 2 players from that draft have done anything of note in the NHL so far (3 if you include Hertl).

It's way too early to start criticizing that pick. Why should the default position be to criticize until Jankowski proves them wrong? Holding back criticism until Jankowski proves them right seems like the more reasonable and "fair" position (unless they think that has already happened, in which case I would really question their insight when at least 7 players drafted ahead of Jankowski haven't sniffed the NHL yet, and many of the ones who did are not close to being established by any means... and only 4 players drafted after him have played in the NHL with the most being 17 games).

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by WilderPegasus

And really if you think that tweet by McKenzie is hating then you've got a persecution complex.

An integral requirement of being a Flames fan. It's the most annoying part of our fan-base... from reporters, to PBP guys, to the NHL, we think everyone is out to get us.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

There is no board.

I'm sure most teams had Monahan as a mid 2nd round pick

[Yrebmi]

We knew he was a gamble from day one.

Either he pans out or he doesn't. Either way this will be a great thread to revisit in 2 years.

For the record, I like the pick.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Why is that? The "conventional wisdom" pick of last years draft at #6 was Monahan. Could you imagine if Feaster went off the board again and picked some relatively unknown kid, while Monahan fell to the Oilers? So why is it ok for Feaster to go off the board with the 2012 pick, when the conventional pick is already in the NHL on a very good Penguins team? Plus Maatta is a defenceman, which the Flames are sorely lacking in their development system

I never liked the Jankowski pick from the start, this just makes it worse

the "conventional wisdom" value goes down the deeper you go down in a draft (there is some sure-fire talent at the top of the foodchain, after which it becomes more of a free-for all).

the flames have too long been lacking talent at center. They tried to address it here, and in the trade down, also addresssed some defensive need in getting sieloff.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'm sure most teams had Monahan as a mid 2nd round pick

Your reply has nothing to do with the my post.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Table 5

An integral requirement of being a Flames fan. It's the most annoying part of our fan-base... from reporters, to PBP guys, to the NHL, we think everyone is out to get us.

I do think there has been a media bias against the organization since Dion got traded. Having said that many of those moves were comical from an outsider perspective

1. Dion traded for trash from a bad team
2. Jokinen and Prust traded for a overpaid guy who was a healthy scratch 9 games before the deal
3. Stajan contract
4. Bringing Jokinen back
5. Intellecual honesty
6. Regehr trade
7. bringing in Cammy, Hudler, Wideman when it was apparent a rebuild should have started
8. Jankowski pick and saying they believe he is the best player in the draft
9. RoR offer sheet
10. Iginla/Bos/Pitt trade fiasco
11. Feaster stating his mandate is to make the playoffs after trading away their best forward and D (taken out of context)

It seems the media, message board trolls ate up many of those things. The Flames were an easy team to make a punch line but I do believe the media perception is changing due to a few factors:

1. Committment to rebuild
2. Brian Burke hiring
3. recent drafting (Sven, Monahan, Gaudreau, Wortherspoon)
4. Team identity (comeptitive, hard to play against)
5. Current cap position (46 contracts, ample cap space, free reign to spend to the cap, and not handing out ridiculous contracts)
6. Sublte solid trades (Colborne, Knight, Galliardi, Russel)
7. giving the kids a chance

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think it's fair when you pick a consensus 2nd round pick or later player in the 1st round. The NHL is no different than any other league in that when a team goes off the board at the draft they are criticized. Some teams redeem themselves if that pick turns out to be a good player but most teams have to live with the criticism because the reaches don't pan out. They rarely do that's why they are called a 'reach' as you are going against the consensus. The consensus is never always right but they are right more than they are wrong.

Personally I'm not losing sleep over the whole Jankowski pick but it's fair game for McKenzie to say what he did. Until Jankowski does anything in the NHL it's fair criticism. We would be making fun of the Oilers right now if the shoe was on the other foot. I still make fun of them for picking Moroz with the 31st pick in that draft. It's fair.

But again you can't compare him to one guy. Where is the comparison to the guy picked 22nd or 20th overall. There isn't one because those players haven't panned out yet.

The consensus pick keeps a GM employed and ensures average results. Never go for it on fourth and one at the goal line always take the points is convensional wisdom. IT IS WRONG. Convential wisdom allows GM's and Coaches to avoid criticism.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GGG

But again you can't compare him to one guy. Where is the comparison to the guy picked 22nd or 20th overall. There isn't one because those players haven't panned out yet.

The consensus pick keeps a GM employed and ensures average results. Never go for it on fourth and one at the goal line always take the points is convensional wisdom. IT IS WRONG. Convential wisdom allows GM's and Coaches to avoid criticism.

It's not about the other teams it's about the situation fairly or unfairly. At the time the Flames were looked at as an old team that badly needed an infusion of young talent. The consensus was they should not be gambling on 1st round picks given their lack of talent in their system at that time. Fair or unfair that's the way it was viewed by those in the media and around the league.

It's no different about the situation of the Flames passing on Shinkaruk at 22. Piorier and Shinkaruk will be forever linked for better or worse. If Shinkaruk turns into a star and Poirier just another player Flames fans will hear about it for years despite the fact that the Leafs passed on him at after and a handful of teams before the Flames. Fair or not it's going to be an ongoing story. You can deal with it or you can continue to complain about how the media is out to get the Flames.

[calumniate]

Nichuskin with his first goal tonight. It's not even a question

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's not about the other teams it's about the situation fairly or unfairly. At the time the Flames were looked at as an old team that badly needed an infusion of young talent. The consensus was they should not be gambling on 1st round picks given their lack of talent in their system at that time. Fair or unfair that's the way it was viewed by those in the media and around the league.

It's no different about the situation of the Flames passing on Shinkaruk at 22. Piorier and Shinkaruk will be forever linked for better or worse. If Shinkaruk turns into a star and Poirier just another player Flames fans will hear about it for years despite the fact that the Leafs passed on him at after and a handful of teams before the Flames. Fair or not it's going to be an ongoing story. You can deal with it or you can continue to complain about how the media is out to get the Flames.

I think the Shinkarek one is much more valid as he was the clear alternative to Poirer. In the Matta case Matta wasnt a clear alternative to Jankowski. And many media complained about trading down as well. At 14 there was even more options other than Matta to pick and then you don't get Seilof. My issue with the media isn't that they rag on the flames I think that is made up in peoples heads but that in this case the comparison isn't valid because there was no concensus alternative. Yes, Jankowski was off borad, but there wasn't a clear alternative that makes comparisons later on valid.

Sure the narative is changing now and its becoming a Matta vs Janko. Early on it was a Teruvein(sp) vs. Janko, and if Matta busts out over the next two years it will become XXX vs Janko. Its not a valid way of assessing draft success.

[vilzeh]

Määttä (pittsburgh) is staying up also.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by GGG

Sure the narative is changing now and its becoming a Matta vs Janko. Early on it was a Teruvein(sp) vs. Janko, and if Matta busts out over the next two years it will become XXX vs Janko. Its not a valid way of assessing draft success.

It's always been TT vs. Janko and Sieloff, or Janko vs. Maatta. If we were going to cherry pick a comparison it would be Hertl.

And yes, it's Shinkaruk vs. Poirier. I'd also say Klimchuk vs. Zykov is a fairly natural comparison (though I'm also interested in comparison to Petan and Lehkonen).

There are two different comparisons: comparing our pick vs. the best pick is a measure of how far we are from optimum (although optimum is a complete fantasy). Comparing our pick vs. the obvious pick is a reasonable measure of opportunity cost.

[neo45]

On a side note, Pitt would make a great trading partner if we want to go after a young defenseman

Maata
Pouliot
Despres
Harrington
Dumolin

Talk about depth. Any of them would be a very nice pick up, Harrington especially

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by neo45

On a side note, Pitt would make a great trading partner if we want to go after a young defenseman

Maata
Pouliot
Despres
Harrington
Dumolin

Talk about depth. Any of them would be a very nice pick up, Harrington especially

You would imagine any one of those guys would been in the Iginla trade so it's hard to imagine any one of our current veterans getting one of those guys.

[wooohooo]

Ramo is one heck of a goalie but his rebound control is poor

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by wooohooo

Ramo is one heck of a goalie but his rebound control is poor

You sure you got the right thread?

[wooohooo]

Haha I meant to post in the game time thread whoops.

[Erick Estrada]

nm

[Calgary4LIfe]

The whole Jankowski pick - he was ranked in the low 1st - mid 2nd by almost all notable scouting services (IIRC). He was always slated to be a project.

In hindsight, does the fact that Maatta playing in the NHL (and looking pretty good) matter that much to a team that is in the rebuild? We can all go back to that selection in 3-4 years when the Flames should be a competitive team and analyze that pick. Jankowski was a 'hail-mary' type of selection, and that is because of his high-ceiling and project status.

I hope he continues to make a little bit of noise this season and to shut some critics up who are so keen on still knocking this kid down. For as well as the Flames are doing, they are still not a team that is competing for the cup, and to me, it isn't as important what a prospect does right now in the NHL (though it is great to see), but it is what that player develops into and what his contribution to the team is when this team is supposed to be competing again.

Both sides of the argument just have to wait and see what happens. I am personally very high on Jankowski, but you never know until this kid develops more and everyone gets to what the finished product is.