Iginla vs. Nieuwendyk: Who was the better player?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Iginla had unquestionably the better peak but Niewendyk will likely have better longevity and, in my opinion, achieved more team success and was a much more important component of that success than Iginla.

In your opinion? Great thoughts, Peggy Hill.

Yes, the multiple Stanley Cup and one time Conn Smyth winner had more team success. Don't know if that's an "in my opinion" type comment.

Love both players though, hate the way Nieuwendyk left Calgary but it's been so long now don't really care. Neither are my favourite Flames ever but tough to pick, I'd give an edge to Iginla though.

[Huntingwhale]

Good
Star
Superstar
Megastar

Both players were undoubtledly superstars, but never quite reached the Megstar status of the Lemieux's and Orr's

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Good
Star
Superstar
Megastar

Both players were undoubtledly superstars, but never quite reached the Megstar status of the Lemieux's and Orr's

Thats "your labelling"....not mine.
Mine ends at Superstar. That way I dont end up having to draw the line at Multi dimensional super transcendental mega star

[Huntingwhale]

Don't forget the most important :Ultrastar. It's like a supernovae of hockey.

[19Yzerman19]

I don't know how you can possibly say that the Flames didn't win that trade in a landslide.

The players are, at best, equals over their entire careers. If you're giving anyone a nod it should be Iginla who spent a couple of years as arguably the best offensive player in the NHL, an elite level that Nieuwendyk never quite got to.

But even assuming they were equal, the Flames got 100% of the useful life of Iginla, while the Stars got a few years of Nieuwendyk at the end of his prime and a few years post-prime. He never played a full season for them. He never got 70 points in Dallas, nor 40 goals. Most years he was in the 50's in point production. Iginla scored 40 four times, had a bunch more 30+ seasons and broke 70 points 7 times for the Flames after that trade. It's not even close.

Attributing a cup win to a single player (even the Conn Smythe winner) and using that as the basis for evaluating a trade involving that player several years earlier is the height of stupidity in hockey analysis and exhibit A in hockey fans' ridiculous obssession with Stanley Cup wins as the only meaningful measure of quality of a hockey team or its players.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

In your opinion? Great thoughts, Peggy Hill.

Yes, the multiple Stanley Cup and one time Conn Smyth winner had more team success. Don't know if that's an "in my opinion" type comment.

Love both players though, hate the way Nieuwendyk left Calgary but it's been so long now don't really care. Neither are my favourite Flames ever but tough to pick, I'd give an edge to Iginla though.

In my opinion was referring to Nieuwendyk being a more important part of the team achieving success than Iginla.

Better leader, better on the ice, more versatile.

[trackercowe]

Everyone seems to be forgetting the key factor in that trade.

The one and only Corey Millen

He's the real reason we won that trade.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I bet if you count up the dead puck era goals scored by both of them since Jarome came into the league that Nieuwendyk isn't that far behind Iginla's total, and might be ahead of it in Goals Per Game. One guy's prime vs. another's decline.

Someone wanna do the math?

Counting the Dead Puck Era as 1994-95 to present...

             Joe  Jarome
GP           726  1240
G            271   530
A            289   580
Pts          569  1110
GPG          0.37 0.43
PPG          0.77 0.90

Notes:
-The dead puck era is generally considered to have begun with the 1994-95 season and ascendancy of the Devils. The average NHL team still scored 3.24GPG that season. Removing this season would reduce Nieuwendyk's averages
- I counted to present day because scoring averages simply never recovered. The new rules in 2005-06 had only a momentary blip before settling back to the traditional ranges of the last 20 years.

- As with previous arguments, Niewuendyk had the benefit of being a support player on stacked teams and almost certainly facing lesser defencemen while playing with superior linemates, yet still falls behind Iginla as the only threat on abysmal offensive teams.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Iginla no question. The Flames of the late 80's were stacked and so were the Stars. Joe was good but Iginla was a one man show for most of his career in Calgary. It's not Iggy's fault he never won a cup here. We just plan sucked besides him and Kipper

That's quite an indictment of Darryl Sutter. He spent to cap every year and the Flames had only two decent players.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

In my opinion was referring to Nieuwendyk being a more important part of the team achieving success than Iginla.

Better leader, better on the ice, more versatile.

Better on the ice? That's fairly vague.

More versitale, for sure. Good two way game and I'll always take the middlemen over the winger.

Better leader is pretty debatable, I think both are fantastic leaders. Hard to know who is better though. Neither guy captained a team to the cup but both have been apart of leadership roles on winners. Joe on the Stars Iginla with an A in two Olympic Gold victories. Leadership is hard to quantify though since all we get is hearsay but I've only heard good things about both guys leading abilities.

[Flacker]

As far as retiring numbers:

12 will be retired by the Calgary Flames, I would suspect after Iggy calls it. Left the team on good terms.

25 will NEVER be retired by the Calgary Flames, the guy refused to sign after arbitration, and held out until Dec. 19th (traded to the Stars), well into the regular season. He did not leave the team on good terms.

[MrMastodonFarm]

I think that's (hopefully) water under the bridge. Nieuwendyk plated in the Heritage classic for the Flames, no issue was made. I'd like to see his number eventually in the rafters.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flacker

25 will NEVER be retired by the Calgary Flames, the guy refused to sign after arbitration, and held out until Dec. 19th (traded to the Stars), well into the regular season. He did not leave the team on good terms.

There was a lot of that going around at the time. Many players held out, or left teams on bad terms.

[jeffman]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Don't forget the most important :Ultrastar. It's like a supernovae of hockey.

Oilers are a black hole

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Thats "your labelling"....not mine.
Mine ends at Superstar. That way I dont end up having to draw the line at Multi dimensional super transcendental mega star

See I think you need 1 extra tier other wise there have only been 4 superstars

Howe, Orr, Gretzkey, Lemeiux, Richard (maybe) and thats about it. To me those are Generational Talents and if we had been around to watch Howe play I suspect we would remove him from the category. Its fine if you want to limit the party to such few players but those are generational talents. The best players of a generation. There are more superstars than that. Players that sell tickets are superstars - Sakic, Jagr, Iggy, Roy, etc

My Hiearchy
Generational talent - Best Player over a 10 to 20 year period, In discusiion for GOAT
Super Star - Best Player in the NHL at their position over a number of years
All Stars - Top 5 at their position over a number of years.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

I think that's (hopefully) water under the bridge. Nieuwendyk plated in the Heritage classic for the Flames, no issue was made. I'd like to see his number eventually in the rafters.

And he did so despite knowing it was going to kill his back. From that perspective, I agree, the team and the player have buried the hatchet.

[trackercowe]

Let's not forget Iginla was always paid top dollar, and it's debatable whether he ever truly took a hometown discount. Iginla himself also held out, but was able to come to terms before the season began (he might have missed part of training camp, not completely sure on that).

While Nieuwendyk holding out like he did is not forgivable, had he been with the Flames once the dollar was near par he would likely have been compensated to the amount he thought he was worth (or near that at least). It's unfortunate it played out that way, but you have to think Nieuwendyk would have gladly stayed had the Flames met his contract demands. As a former manager I am sure Nieuwendyk realizes he could have handled things differently himself, but I really hope at this point most people are over it.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Iginla missed the first three games of the 1999-2000 season because of a contract hold out.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

Let's not forget Iginla was always paid top dollar, and it's debatable whether he ever truly took a hometown discount. Iginla himself also held out, but was able to come to terms before the season began (he might have missed part of training camp, not completely sure on that).

Iginla actually attended camp, on his own risk. But he did miss a few games before signing a contract.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Iginla actually attended camp, on his own risk. But he did miss a few games before signing a contract.

Yeah, purchased his own insurance for that camp if I recall correctly.