Season Kick-off pressers Sept 30. Burke @ 11:45 AM. Feaster @ 1 PM

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by irrevocable

Burke basically said that Colborne is going to be developed into a useful bottom 6 forward that has a long career in the NHL. Didn't make it sound like he has much hope for untapped potential / top 6.

Poor kid. His confidence must be shattered after hearing the organization doesn't view him as the savior.

[irrevocable]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Poor kid. His confidence must be shattered after hearing the organization doesn't view him as the savior.

He's not a fragile baby.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Are we talking individual success or team success here because it sounds to me you want Monahan, Sven, etc to all be handed top 6 minutes even if they don't deserve it that's it's counter productive to team success for the Flames so those players can flourish elsewhere in their careers?

Did Keenan make Tanguay into more of a winner and have a better career by making him come back past centre???


With Hartley as coach Tanguay was a key part of winning a SC and was not even thinking about coming back past centre.

I am all for having a team of tough talented grinders but all winning teams have their Tanguay's, Kane's, Carter's, Brett Hull's,Kariya's and Sellane's who are focused 90% on putting the biscuit in the basket.

Crosby works hard but 90 % of his focus is on the attacking side of the red line.

The Sedin's defense is based on them controlling the puck in the offensive zone.


Even Datsyuk and Zetterberg play defense by taking off and going full throttle on offense as soon as Lidstrom came close to a loose puck.

[Five-hole]

My only issue with this is why we're giving any sort of latitude to the management of this group in knowing how to push and prod and develop a guy like Baertschi. When's the last time we developed a skill forward? Long before this management group was here, at the very least.

I think it's a worthwhile question if this emphasis on 3-zone play at this stage in his development is the right thing to be asking from Sven right now. I don't know. I just don't know enough about hockey to know. But somebody pointed out that Pat Kane probably didn't have a lot of defensive responsibility when he first came into the league. Maybe still doesn't. And he's won a Conn Smythe.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Dienasty

I want both.

By developing elite players you have a better team... They go one in the same.

Stillman won 2 cups, Iggy one Stanley cup finals, and Savard went to multiple playoffs with the Bruins, but due to concussion issues didn't get to win with them. Other then Bure these players found success by being good hockey players.

My question to you is, do you think the Flames are going to win a lot this year?

I don't so I would rather see the team give meaningful minutes, rather then giving drifters (Stajan, Stemp, Hudler) ice time.

Not to mention I don't think Glencross deserves the ice time he gets, he doesn't hit anymore, and he takes numerous dumb penalties. I liked him more when he scored 10-15 as a fiesty third liner that would back check and hit. Not the guy who turned down team Canada (world championship) when he wanted his contract and didn't want to get injured.

You can't give players meaningful minutes if they aren't earning them. End of story. If Sven can't outplay Hudler he shouldn't be ahead of him on the depth chart. The Flames are rebuilding here and part of that is to build a solid team nucleus of young players. You can't have a solid nucleus when players are allowed to freelance and not commit to a team game. There's nothing wrong with what the Flames did after the deadline last year giving the kids lots of ice time but you don't start game 1 of an 82 game NHL season running your team like that.

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

My only issue with this is why we're giving any sort of latitude to the management of this group in knowing how to push and prod and develop a guy like Baertschi. When's the last time we developed a skill forward? Long before this management group was here, at the very least.

I think it's a worthwhile question if this emphasis on 3-zone play at this stage in his development is the right thing to be asking from Sven right now. I don't know. I just don't know enough about hockey to know. But somebody pointed out that Pat Kane probably didn't have a lot of defensive responsibility when he first came into the league. Maybe still doesn't. And he's won a Conn Smythe.

If not now, then when? I think now is the ideal time to have him better his defensive game. I don't think anyone is trying to convert him into a defensive specialist by any means, but right now he's only passingly aware there is a defensive zone. The times I've seen him coming back and becoming involved in his own end he's actually quite good at reading the plays on the ice and breaking them up. I think it's mostly a matter of getting him to commit to do that every shift/every game.

[Yoho]

I love all this hard stance on a 20 yr. old.

With the impetuous of youth what's to stop him from shutting down and saying

"Ok tough guy, if you want to keep playing me with 4th line garbage why don't you trade me, and I'll show you how bad I am on a different team"

This will end poorly for the Flames like it often does.

But, don't talk in the presser about the fact that we have the worst bottom 3 defense in the league. Bag on your most skilled player publicly so everyone falls into line, and buys into this meritocricy.

Continue to praise these veterans who were colossal failures the last 3 seasons as "the better option".

Easy to forget this team only started winning games when the youth injection was added last year.

[ah123]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Easy to forget this team only started winning games when the youth injection was added last year when the pressure was off.

fyp

[djsFlames]

So Feaster says he would like to take back the 5 game call up he gave Sven two seasons ago, because it made his expectations sky high..

[irrevocable]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

So Feaster says he would like to take back the 5 game call up he gave Sven two seasons ago, because it made his expectations sky high..

It was an aberration. Sven didn't look terrible while called up.. but other than the flukey goals he looked exactly as he should: young. Everybody around this city started heralding him as a saviour. It's unfair to Sven.

[PeteLFan]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Did Keenan make Tanguay into more of a winner and have a better career by making him come back past centre???


With Hartley as coach Tanguay was a key part of winning a SC and was not even thinking about coming back past centre.

I am all for having a team of tough talented grinders but all winning teams have their Tanguay's, Kane's, Carter's, Brett Hull's,Kariya's and Sellane's who are focused 90% on putting the biscuit in the basket.

Crosby works hard but 90 % of his focus is on the attacking side of the red line.

The Sedin's defense is based on them controlling the puck in the offensive zone.


Even Datsyuk and Zetterberg play defense by taking off and going full throttle on offense as soon as Lidstrom came close to a loose puck.

Ask Tanguay how Hartley coached that team. They had one of the top defensive teams in the NHL, and Alex said he demanded a lot on the defensive end.

This isn't a Brent Sutter coached team, but the top teams have top players backcheck, and control the game in all 3 zones.

This isn't about taking 30 points off Sven, so he can come back hard. This about him being out on the ice in key times, and not getting scored on.

How many rings do the Sedin sisters have? Yeah I thought, I rather have 75 point player that wins us games, then a guy that will put up 100 points and do nothing.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I know it's easy for you to take criticism, hiding behind a forum avatar.

But it's been nothing but constant negativity regarding Baertschi these last 3 weeks. I don't care if you think hockey players aren't human (he's TWENTY years old), but this is not EA Sports NHL. Players are not simply statistics. They are not motivated the same way others are motivated.

When Baertschi has confidence, he plays with confidence and plays well. To me, this is just setting up the excuse to send him down to Abbotsford in a week.

The bolded part is not true at all. The probelm you have is that any critisism of a player you like and you think its total negativity. You did the same thing last year when some posters thought Iggy was doing his own thing or had lost a step.

These guys are not robots and all have some flaws in their game. Nothing wrong telling Sven he has to work on his play without the puck. Its going to make him a better player in the long run.

Also if he can't work on his play without the puck in the NHL, then sending him down is the right thing to do. Obviously the Flames feel he can work on his game up in the NHL or they would have sent him down.

[bubbsy]

People calling out Burke/Feaster on their stance and statements regarding Baertchi -> Please see Nazim Kadri's time as a leaf, and please pay special attention to how well Kadri's has developed. Kid looks like a legit player, with star potential.

Burke's Management style was honestly harsh with the kid, and that didn't stop him from becoming what he is. Add that to the fact that he did that in a place like Toronto where the media, etc, is much worse than Calgary.

Baertchi does have too much optimism/pressure on him. He needs to work thru this. But i have no issue in taking a tough stance with these kids rather than coddling them.

[Azhouse]

Originally Posted by Dienasty

I prefer the Edmonton treatment of Hall/Eberle/Yakupov/Nuge/Schultz let them make mistakes, and learn from it,

Ya I think they should give him a $42,000,000 contract IMMEDIATELY! It would help in his development.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

This is not a Brent Sutter team anymore. Let's stop acting like it.

Hate to break it to you, but that is the expectation of every team in the league.

While I think he does need to compete in all zones, that's not what he needs to put all his focus on now. His focus needs to be on developing his offensive tools to make him the offensive impact player that he has the talent to be. Everything else can follow.

The management team just said the exact opposite!



If Baertschi wants to be a NHL player he needs to play in all three zones and not just in the offensive zone. If Baertschi follows your advice he's well on his way to being the next Valeri Bure. I don't think any of us, including Baertschi, hope for that.

[hamburgler]

How long did Kadri take to develop? How many times was he called out in the media by Burke, by coaching staff? I believe his last season in the minors he was called fat by Dallas Eakins. Kids take time to develop, some think they can just waltz into the show. It may not be Baertschi's time this season, but the kid will develop.

[Dienasty]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You can't give players meaningful minutes if they aren't earning them. End of story. If Sven can't outplay Hudler he shouldn't be ahead of him on the depth chart. The Flames are rebuilding here and part of that is to build a solid team nucleus of young players. You can't have a solid nucleus when players are allowed to freelance and not commit to a team game. There's nothing wrong with what the Flames did after the deadline last year giving the kids lots of ice time but you don't start game 1 of an 82 game NHL season running your team like that.

Now you are putting words in my mouth.

1) Hudler is not part of the Flames future plans, so why are you wasting useful minutes on him when the focus is 3-5 years down the road? Do you really think that Hudler is a significantly better player then Baertschi? I think a lot of Hudlers success has to do with his PPP. 8 of his 27 points were on the PP last year and he was a -13, although not a perfect stat just shows that he is scored on more then he scores. In comparison Baertschi has zero PPP out of his 10 last year.

2) I am not saying the young guys can do whatever they want on the ice, I am saying that when they do mess up they shouldn't be benched/scratched like a lot of the players are in Calgary. (which goes to my original point about Kobasew/St. Louis/Boyd/Backlund) these kids need to be afforded the oppurtunity to correct their mistakes. A lot of these kids aren't sure if they belong right off the bat, thus putting them in situations where they can succeed gives them confidence. When you play with confidence you go on instinct rather then over thinking, and second guessing. Flames have institutionalized a fear of making mistakes. Hockey is a game of mistakes, I didn't see Iggy get relegated to the fourth line like Baertschi did when he turned the puck over and coasted back.


3) By sending Baertschi down to the AHL, what does he have to prove? The Heat were the best team in the AHL when he was down there. He was a point a game player before the NHL season started, and has basically proven that he is too good for that league. To take the next step he needs to be getting that ice time at the NHL level. 18+ minutes, with numerous oppurtunites on the power play. If he fails well at least he did it in a season we will probably finish last anyways. If he succeeds then we finally have our first legitimate piece for the rebuild. Either way we find out.

[Dienasty]

Originally Posted by Azhouse

Ya I think they should give him a $42,000,000 contract IMMEDIATELY! It would help in his development.

Nice reading comprehension...

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Dienasty

Now you are putting words in my mouth.

1) Hudler is not part of the Flames future plans, so why are you wasting useful minutes on him when the focus is 3-5 years down the road? Do you really think that Hudler is a significantly better player then Baertschi? I think a lot of Hudlers success has to do with his PPP. 8 of his 27 points were on the PP last year and he was a -13, although not a perfect stat just shows that he is scored on more then he scores. In comparison Baertschi has zero PPP out of his 10 last year.

2) I am not saying the young guys can do whatever they want on the ice, I am saying that when they do mess up they shouldn't be benched/scratched like a lot of the players are in Calgary. (which goes to my original point about Kobasew/St. Louis/Boyd/Backlund) these kids need to be afforded the oppurtunity to correct their mistakes. A lot of these kids aren't sure if they belong right off the bat, thus putting them in situations where they can succeed gives them confidence. When you play with confidence you go on instinct rather then over thinking, and second guessing. Flames have institutionalized a fear of making mistakes. Hockey is a game of mistakes, I didn't see Iggy get relegated to the fourth line like Baertschi did when he turned the puck over and coasted back.


3) By sending Baertschi down to the AHL, what does he have to prove? The Heat were the best team in the AHL when he was down there. He was a point a game player before the NHL season started, and has basically proven that he is too good for that league. To take the next step he needs to be getting that ice time at the NHL level. 18+ minutes, with numerous oppurtunites on the power play. If he fails well at least he did it in a season we will probably finish last anyways. If he succeeds then we finally have our first legitimate piece for the rebuild. Either way we find out.

For your 1st point, i don't think any of the veteran players are going to be here in 4-5 years. So are they all supose to play 15 minutes or less and no PP time?

I do agree with your 2nd point and i hope its something that Hartely changes this season.

Not sure about 3rd point because i don't think Sven will ever be back in the AHL.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by Husky

Crosby is a generational talent. Baerischi has the potential to be a top 6 scoring threat. Just like Iginla, who was never defensive nor tried hard in his own zone. The guy was there to score...score more times than he was on the ice for goals against.

I love Iggy but what drove you most nuts about him? Especially the last few years, he did it his way and it led to???