[OOT] Melee between Toronto and Buffalo

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by theinfinitejar

It doesn't matter what Scott's intentions were anyway, it's perfectly reasonable for Kessel to think at that moment that Scott's throwing his gloves off because he wants to pound his face into mush.

Yes, it is perfectly reasonable for Kessel to think that at that moment.

However, that does not, in any way, transfer to it being okay for him to swing a two-hander at a guy who is engaged with another player a little later.

[doctajones428]

Since when is the point of a fight to cause injuries? Fights are meant to inflict pain, not break the guys face and make him miss games.

Shin pad or not, it doesn't justify swinging your stick like that. Freak accidents have to be brought into consideration. Karlsson's achilles was a freak accident, should he go back to not using kevlar socks? Because hey, it's just a once in a million occurrence

Yeah, Kessel could tried just inflicting pain, but two handed slashes are against the rules and suspension worthy. Fighting is against the rules but you get a 5 minutes penalty

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by fotze

How about: A guy is pointing a gun at toward you and running toward you, you have two options, turtle or run away. Slashing at his feet (Cricket style) with a stick would get you convicted with assault since he hadn't yet shot you in the face.

That doesn't really work. If someone is pointing a gun at you, even if it is not loaded, you are allowed to act in self defense. The slash still wouldn't be assault.

This is how suicide by police is committed. You do not have to pull the trigger, just run around pointing a gun at police officers.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes, it is perfectly reasonable for Kessel to think that at that moment.

However, that does not, in any way, transfer to it being okay for him to swing a two-hander at a guy who is engaged with another player a little later.

I don't think you'll find many people have defended his follow up slashes

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Wolven

^ Beaten to it again.

As mentioned, Scott's intent is painfully obvious. Hockey players don't drop their gloves and stick and start grabbing at and chasing a guy because they are looking to make new friends. If you think Scott's intent was anything other than to beat the stuffing out of Kessel then you are kidding yourself.

Also, I am not really arguing whether or not what Kessel did was dangerous, I don't think it matters either. The guy is acting in self defense against a much larger and more dangerous opponent. I say chop away.

While you mention Scotts intent, if you look close enough before the fight started you can see Scott asking Kessel if he wants to fight, Kessel then starts reaching towards Scotts face... Just sayin.

IMHO Kessel could have skated away, his team mates would have been there for him.

Kind of silly when you consider Kessel came back again and swung his stick a second time... Was that self defense too? At that point on the second swing that seriously looks like intent to injure. Did anyone notice how hard he swung his stick at Scott's ankles..wow!?

Also how many punches did Scott throw at Kessel when he probably had time to throw a couple?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by doctajones428

Since when is the point of a fight to cause injuries? Fights are meant to inflict pain, not break the guys face and make him miss games.

Shin pad or not, it doesn't justify swinging your stick like that. Freak accidents have to be brought into consideration. Karlsson's achilles was a freak accident, should he go back to not using kevlar socks? Because hey, it's just a once in a million occurrence

Yeah, Kessel could tried just inflicting pain, but two handed slashes are against the rules and suspension worthy. Fighting is against the rules but you get a 5 minutes penalty

So the point of punching a guy in the face as hard as you can is not to break his face? Hmm, that's a new one.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

While you mention Scotts intent, if you look close enough before the fight started you can see Scott asking Kessel if he wants to fight, Kessel then starts reaching towards Scotts face... Just sayin.

IMHO Kessel could have skated away, his team mates would have been there for him.

Kind of silly when you consider Kessel came back again and swung his stick a second time... Was that self defense too? At that point on the second swing that seriously looks like intent to injure. Did anyone notice how hard he swung his stick at Scott's ankles..wow!?

Also how many punches did Scott throw at Kessel when he probably had time to throw a couple?

Or you see Kessel look over with a 'are you f'in serious' look on his face and then put his hand up to create a barrier between him and the neanderthal beside him

[strombad]

Originally Posted by valo403

Well if you'd like to try writing one we could give it a shot.

The fact of the matter is that Scott could have seriously injured Kessel had Kessel not defended himself. I don't see the response as excessive, you do, that's great. We disagree. You can leave it at that or you can make another moronic comparison, up to you.

Bit of a hypocritical statement, considering your struggles to write one yourself.

The fact of the matter is that Kessel could have seriously injured Scott. Notice how that sentence seems familiar? You might say "but how could he by swinging his stick at his ankles!", but I'll just ask "how could Scott without throwing a single punch". You're assuming based on something that never happened. Kessel could have hit Scott in the head and killed him. I mean, it didn't happen, so we'll never know, but it's roughly as likely as Scott getting his hands on Kessel and punching him to death. Until you admit that Kessel was equally in the wrong here instead of defending him from someone who didn't physically harm him in any way, then your credibility is zero. Please, if you can go a whole few posts without calling people names I suggest you do so, "stupid" and "moronic" are petty, and weaken your argument substantially.

Regarding the fact that they're both penalties, that's true. I suppose I don't view fighting in the same light as slashing as one is mutual, while the other is a one sided attack. Scott charged Kessel thinking he was ready to fight, Kessel clearly wasn't, which makes Scott's attempt no better than Kessel's first slash. After that, the second slash and the "jab" to the midsection were above and beyond the original altercation, and served no purpose other than to further engage Scott (which Kessel apparently had no interest in doing).

I think 3 games is fair, I would've liked to see him miss 2 regular season games as I don't find preseason games to be much of a punishment, but it's still around the amount of games Kessel deserved.

Unfortunate that Rolston has to be fined for Scott's actions however. If Kessel really had no interest in fighting, Scott should have known better.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by strombad

Bit of a hypocritical statement, considering your struggles to write one yourself.

The fact of the matter is that Kessel could have seriously injured Scott. Notice how that sentence seems familiar? You might say "but how could he by swinging his stick at his ankles!", but I'll just ask "how could Scott without throwing a single punch". You're assuming based on something that never happened. Kessel could have hit Scott in the head and killed him. I mean, it didn't happen, so we'll never know, but it's roughly as likely as Scott getting his hands on Kessel and punching him to death. Until you admit that Kessel was equally in the wrong here instead of defending him from someone who didn't physically harm him in any way, then your credibility is zero. Please, if you can go a whole few posts without calling people names I suggest you do so, "stupid" and "moronic" are petty, and weaken your argument substantially.

Yep, really struggling, good thing I have you here to help.

The whole building could have collapsed and killed everyone, it didn't happen, but it could have. Do you want to keep down this silly path?

The fact of the matter is that I see Kessel's initial slash as justified self defense, which interestingly enough was the same sentiment expressed by Shanahan.

Oh, and that comparison was moronic I'm sorry. Equating something like this to spousal abuse is rather disgusting.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Kessel has been suspended 3 games (the rest of the pre-season)

not enough IMO but better than nothing.

What a travesty! Free Phil now!

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by valo403

Yep, really struggling, good thing I have you here to help.

The whole building could have collapsed and killed everyone, it didn't happen, but it could have. Do you want to keep down this silly path?

The fact of the matter is that I see Kessel's initial slash as justified self defense, which interestingly enough was the same sentiment expressed by Shanahan.

Oh, and that comparison was moronic I'm sorry. Equating something like this to spousal abuse is rather disgusting.

Now you say initial slash but I was talking about his second slash which obviously is not self defense. Slashing your stick is a dangerous precedent; All Kessel had to do is skate away and his actions would have been justified. There is never a justifiable reason to swing your stick we have had some major injuries in the past due to stick swinging and one death I believe.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by doctajones428

Since when is the point of a fight to cause injuries? Fights are meant to inflict pain, not break the guys face and make him miss games.

Shin pad or not, it doesn't justify swinging your stick like that. Freak accidents have to be brought into consideration. Karlsson's achilles was a freak accident, should he go back to not using kevlar socks? Because hey, it's just a once in a million occurrence

wow. Kessel's stick is now as sharp as a skate blade! hahaha

He could possibly slice a puck in half!!

[Bertuzzied]

Scott should get a lifetime suspension for making us all jump to Kessel's defence.

[DazzlinDino]

Ugly Stick swinging incidents
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y2RpF5frWI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOjf2XV-NNI#t=13


Not sure how to embed these

[strombad]

Originally Posted by valo403

Yep, really struggling, good thing I have you here to help.

The whole building could have collapsed and killed everyone, it didn't happen, but it could have. Do you want to keep down this silly path?

The fact of the matter is that I see Kessel's initial slash as justified self defense, which interestingly enough was the same sentiment expressed by Shanahan.

Oh, and that comparison was moronic I'm sorry. Equating something like this to spousal abuse is rather disgusting.

Funny, you bring up hypothetical situations, but when other do, you call it "silly".

You also continuously respond to people who are talking about the disgusting nature of the second slash and the embarrassing jab to the stomach, and you try your best to argue with them, but then when the argument is turned on you it's "oh but I'm talking about the first slash!"

I think you're more interested in arguments and insults.

Take Scott's charge at Kessel and Kessel's first slash out of the equation, both things being equal. What's your opinion on the altercation now?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Now you say initial slash but I was talking about his second slash which obviously is not self defense. Slashing your stick is a dangerous precedent; All Kessel had to do is skate away and his actions would have been justified. There is never a justifiable reason to swing your stick we have had some major injuries in the past due to stick swinging and one death I believe.

I've said that his following slashes were out of line in numerous posts.

Kessel wasn't given the opportunity to skate away. Scott didn't say 'excuse me sir would you oblige me in fisticuffs?' He dropped his gloves and went after him. He may have been able to escape just by skating, but Scott's hand is on his arm when that first slash is delivered, so he's not exactly out of grasp. You have the right to defend yourself, and in my opinion that first slash was not excessive as self defense.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by valo403

I've said that his following slashes were out of line in numerous posts.

Kessel wasn't given the opportunity to skate away. Scott didn't say 'excuse me sir would you oblige me in fisticuffs?' He dropped his gloves and went after him. He may have been able to escape just by skating, but Scott's hand is on his arm when that first slash is delivered, so he's not exactly out of grasp. You have the right to defend yourself, and in my opinion that first slash was not excessive as self defense.

Seems silly to assume you know what was said from a silent TSN clip.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by strombad

Funny, you bring up hypothetical situations, but when other do, you call it "silly".

You also continuously respond to people who are talking about the disgusting nature of the second slash and the embarrassing jab to the stomach, and you try your best to argue with them, but then when the argument is turned on you it's "oh but I'm talking about the first slash!"

I think you're more interested in arguments and insults.

Take Scott's charge at Kessel and Kessel's first slash out of the equation, both things being equal. What's your opinion on the altercation now?

What hypothetical did I bring up?

I have repeatedly said that the second slash was out of line, I'm sorry you didn't catch that.

So in your hypo we have what, Kessel skating into an already existing skirmish and chopping Scott? I'd say he should be suspended 3 games, maybe 1 more, and fined.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by strombad

Seems silly to assume you know what was said from a silent TSN clip.

You're right, Scott probably didn't use the word fisticuffs.

This is probably more accurate: "me punch you I good punching guy"

[strombad]

Originally Posted by valo403

You're right, Scott probably didn't use the word fisticuffs.

This is probably more accurate: "me punch you I good punching guy"

Kessel said "Hey you big fat chicken! Try and catch me! You big dumb oaf! I double dog dare you to punch me!" And then skated away and started slashing him when Scott engaged.

I mean, that's equally valid and likely to any of your assumptions on the situation, based on a TSN clip running a few moments.

I bet he even called him a girly man.