Our preseason goaltending situation

[FlamesAddiction]

Goaltenders are so hard to predict. Not too many people saw Kiprusoff as the goalie of the future for the Flames when he was San Jose's 3rd stringer and was only acquired as stop-gap after our #1 goalie was injured. Or Viktor Fasth establishing himself like he did in Anaheim last season.

I think the only thing certain is that MacDonald is not our future #1 goalie. I believe this because of his age and career status as mostly a 3rd stinger. It's highly unlikely that he will be holding the forte when this team is competitive again.

It's possible that Gillies is the future #1, but that isn't any reason to not let Ramo and Berra make a case for themselves in the meantime, if only to make themselves enough of an asset to flip at the time Gillies is ready.

I really see no upside in playing MacDonald at this point, unless Ramo and Berra are so bad that we are going to break league historical futility records with them in net. I just don't see that happening though. It should be about asset farming if it isn't about winning. MacDonald doesn't stand a chance of helping us do either.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Poe969

We should trade MacDonald to the Pens if they want him as a backup for Fleury. They need a goalie and I'd rather trade him than an unkown at this point.

MacDonlad would make a lot of sense for the Pens. Some other posters mentioned Bryz or Thomas. Would they want to go there? When Vokoun came back i doubt they would like to be placed in the minors if Fleury was still holding his own. MacDonald has experience and his contract is just a few $ over the $900,000 of cap that would be absorbed if he was sent down.

Have to think with 2 pre-season games left, that Berra and Ramo will get the starts. Could be interesting if they both play well. Still think it will be Ramo and MacDonald for the flames to start the season, but things can change.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I won't be shocked if the Flames go after a goalie in the trade market. Likely Riemer if he becomes available. I don't have much faith in Berra or Ramo. Halak, Miller, Lundquivst are all UFA next year.

Also Burke did have Bryz in Anahiem so I could see him being an option this year which would be entertaining as heck

Flames will give ramo and Berra the year to see what they got. I could see them going after someone in the summer. I thought of Bryz also with the Burke connection.

I feel that Bernier will steal the #1 spot from Riemer making him available. That said, i don't want the flames to go after him. I don't think he is a #1 goaltender.

[Poe969]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I won't be shocked if the Flames go after a goalie in the trade market. Likely Riemer if he becomes available. I don't have much faith in Berra or Ramo. Halak, Miller, Lundquivst are all UFA next year.

Also Burke did have Bryz in Anahiem so I could see him being an option this year which would be entertaining as heck

I don't think it makes sense to go after anyone this year except rookies, prospects or picks. The Flames aren't going to be contenders or even pretenders for that matter. The Flames have a glut of goalies in the system and we should let them all get a fair shot (another reason why I'd trade MacDonald, so everyone else gets a chance). I would much rather find out that we have a star goalie then pay someone else to take that chance away. And if none of the goalies we have pan out, then we wait for Gillies (who looks to be the best of our bunch) and until then, we get a good pick (Ekblad to the Flames with the #3 pick). There is no reason for the Flames to pick up anyone who doesn't fit the Flames in 3-5 years.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Poe969

I don't think it makes sense to go after anyone this year except rookies, prospects or picks. The Flames aren't going to be contenders or even pretenders for that matter. The Flames have a glut of goalies in the system and we should let them all get a fair shot (another reason why I'd trade MacDonald, so everyone else gets a chance). I would much rather find out that we have a star goalie then pay someone else to take that chance away. And if none of the goalies we have pan out, then we wait for Gillies (who looks to be the best of our bunch) and until then, we get a good pick (Ekblad to the Flames with the #3 pick). There is no reason for the Flames to pick up anyone who doesn't fit the Flames in 3-5 years.

You had me until, if they don't work out, the flames will wait for Gillies. There is no chance that they go with a youth movement when the goaltender can't stop a beach ball. Youth make mistakes, it can't end up in the back of the net every time they make a mistake.

[Vinny01]

I don't think Gillies, or Brossiot will be ready until they are 24ish so that is 4-5 years until one is a starter. They might be good enough in a year or 2 but I am not sold on it. If our goalies are the worst in the league upgrading at the position would be a wise move. A guy like Riemer who is in his mid-20's would be a decent stop gap if he becomes available.

[Poe969]

I'd like Riemer if we could get rid of MacDonald. I still like the idea of letting the young guys try their hand. I don't think the Flames should go after anyone more than that. Let Thomas sign with Florida and let Bryz go to another team that finished lower than we did last year...maybe Tampa?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

You had me until, if they don't work out, the flames will wait for Gillies. There is no chance that they go with a youth movement when the goaltender can't stop a beach ball. Youth make mistakes, it can't end up in the back of the net every time they make a mistake.

It's unlikely that they are that bad though. Based on their lack of experience, they will have stinker games until they are broken in, but these aren't UHL goalies trying to break into the NHL. They are both from highly competitive leagues. Some people talk as if KHL and Swiss league accomplishments make them nothing better than bums off the street.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's unlikely that they are that bad though. Based on their lack of experience, they will have stinker games until they are broken in, but these aren't UHL goalies trying to break into the NHL. They are both from highly competitive leagues. Some people talk as if KHL and Swiss league accomplishments make them nothing better than bums off the street.

I don't think either of them are bums, but its not out of the realm of possibility that they both end up being back-up goalies. 2 back-up goalies will not cut it if the flames are waiting 3-4-5 years for Gillies.

I hope one of them, or Ortio, or MacDonald, for that matter can at least be an average starter.

[PeteMoss]

If you want Berra/Ramo to play lots of games to get used to North America... MacDonald makes sense as a back-up for the Flames so one of the Europeans can go to the Heat and play a bunch to start the year. Of course that screws Ortio.... so who knows.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I don't think either of them are bums, but its not out of the realm of possibility that they both end up being back-up goalies. 2 back-up goalies will not cut it if the flames are waiting 3-4-5 years for Gillies.

I hope one of them, or Ortio, or MacDonald, for that matter can at least be an average starter.

Joey MacDonald is 33 and has never been an average starter. If there is any hope this season, it's with Ramo and Berra. I would take an unknown over a known in this situation.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by moon

Very doubtful that Broissoit makes the jump to the NHL if that is what you mean but certainly could be an AHL guy next season.

You mean making the jump next season, or do you doubt he has NHL potential at all?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Split98

You mean making the jump next season, or do you doubt he has NHL potential at all?

I doubt his overall NHL potential but I was talking about next season specifically.

He seems to be like a handful of other goalies around the CHL that had decent careers and now need to take a big step forward if they hope to transition to the NHL. Perhaps he makes it but history and probability show that he is unlikely to do so.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by moon

I doubt his overall NHL potential but I was talking about next season specifically.

He seems to be like a handful of other goalies around the CHL that had decent careers and now need to take a big step forward if they hope to transition to the NHL. Perhaps he makes it but history and probability show that he is unlikely to do so.

Ah, phew!

But yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking would be the case. That next year would be a longshot.

Still gives a bit of solace knowing that after these 2 we have 2 more in the wings.

SOMEONE has to work... right?

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I really see no upside in playing MacDonald at this point, unless Ramo and Berra are so bad that we are going to break league historical futility records with them in net. I just don't see that happening though. It should be about asset farming if it isn't about winning. MacDonald doesn't stand a chance of helping us do either.

Based on what we know, I think the Flames would like Ramo to be the starter (contract) and one of MacDonald or Berra to be the backup. Probably Berra.

As you alluded to though, and what I think is the most likely scenario, MacDonald will be the "backup/buffer/insurance" to Ramo as the starter. It will take a bit of time for Ramo to re-adjust to the North American game. Then hopefully pan out as a starting goaltender. However, while he is adjusting and/or if he doesn't develop into a starter at least we have MacDonald around as a stop-gap while we look to other options. Berra being at the top of that list I would guess.

Makes no sense to throw either European goaltender straight into the wolves if we don't have to, which we don't. That and if neither actually works out are the two main reasons MacDonald was brought back this season IMO.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by FlamesAllTheWay

Based on what we know, I think the Flames would like Ramo to be the starter (contract) and one of MacDonald or Berra to be the backup. Probably Berra.

As you alluded to though, and what I think is the most likely scenario, MacDonald will be the "backup/buffer/insurance" to Ramo as the starter. It will take a bit of time for Ramo to re-adjust to the North American game. Then hopefully pan out as a starting goaltender. However, while he is adjusting and/or if he doesn't develop into a starter at least we have MacDonald around as a stop-gap while we look to other options. Berra being at the top of that list I would guess.

Makes no sense to throw either European goaltender straight into the wolves if we don't have to, which we don't. That and if neither actually works out are the two main reasons MacDonald was brought back this season IMO.

Why not? These guys are 26-27 year old pros and they are supposed to be pretty good at what they do. When you make mistakes is when you learn the most. Give them the chance to make lots of them without fear that they'll end up being benched and end up sitting watching MacDonald play instead. MacDonald isn't the future. These guys are. Give them a decent chance in NHL competition and one or both might surprise you. Split the season (40 games each approx.) between the two of them and and I think you'll have a pretty good idea who's is or who isn't going to be our future #1.
Sure, if you send one of these guys down to Abbotsford, he'll definitely get a ton of playing time, but Abbotsford isn't the NHL. These guys need NHL playing time. Anything else would be a waste of time.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Why not? These guys are 26-27 year old pros and they are supposed to be pretty good at what they do. When you make mistakes is when you learn the most.

Agreed learning from your mistakes is a good teaching mechanism. However, even though they're 26 - 27 years old they are still pretty much rookies at the NHL level. And goaltenders traditionally take longer to develop.

Give them the chance to make lots of them without fear that they'll end up being benched and end up sitting watching MacDonald play instead. MacDonald isn't the future. These guys are. Give them a decent chance in NHL competition and one or both might surprise you. Split the season (40 games each approx.) between the two of them and and I think you'll have a pretty good idea who's is or who isn't going to be our future #1.

It's not so much fear of getting benched in favour of MacDonald. I have no doubt Ramo will be the starter when the regular season begins. And there will be some hiccups and mistakes right from the get go and that's to be expected.

It's when things may start snowballing for either euro goalie that MacDonald enters the picture. Some guys might be okay getting lit up on a regular basis and can chalk it up as a learning experience. Some guys don't respond so well and it can ruin their development. Again, even though these guys are 26 - 27 year olds they are still developing and have much to learn at an NHL level. We don't exactly have a top end group of players in front of them either to help ease them into the NHL style game.

To me it's the same as why we have guys like Stempniak, Cammy, Stajan, etc here. They likely aren't part of the future but it prevents us from having to throw Baertschi, Monahan, etc, up against the opposing teams best players night after night even though they aren't ready to handle the workload.

Sure, if you send one of these guys down to Abbotsford, he'll definitely get a ton of playing time, but Abbotsford isn't the NHL. These guys need NHL playing time. Anything else would be a waste of time.

Given we aren't going to be cup contenders anytime soon I just don't see the rush to throw both guys up against top end NHL talent on a regular basis if they show signs they aren't ready to handle it.

Sure, if one or both of them performs right away by all means keep them rolling and that is likely the intent of the Flames. If they start faltering though then at least we have some insurance step in and take some of the pressure off while they (hopefully) continue to develop.

[J epworth]

Hartley has confirmed that Ramo will play against the Rangers and Berra will start against the Coyotes. Makes sense, they know what they have in Mac and want to give the other guys one more shot to show they both deserve to stay up. I still think it'll end up being Ramo and Macdonald.

[Poe969]

I agree, I don't like it but I agree. I would much rather see either Ramo/Berra or Ramo/Ortio. We know that MacDonald isn't a bonafide starter (and if you think he is, I'll agree and say he's a bad starter at best). I'd much rather try to "catch lightning" with a younger guy and hope that it'll be good instead of just accepting that MacDonald will be average/subpar.

[Itse]

I'm hoping Berra stays. I just have a good feeling about that guy.

Although those feelings mostly get it wrong