Would you support Rainbow on Hockey Unis for Sochi?

[Phaneufenstein]

Originally Posted by valo403

Aww you're cute. Reading in context would certainly help you out here.

There have been many highly questionable and pretty scummy moves by Russian leadership recently, but that's a corrupt government so I never really placed too much blame on the people. What troubles me here is that the people are seemingly big supporters of this law. Now whether that's entirely their fault is perhaps questionable, after all it's not exactly a country where the average person is very educated, so perhaps I'm being a bit too harsh, but I don't really have much inclination to show compassion to people who support laws like this.

Do you have proof of this?

[korzym12]

http://link.springer.com/article/10....3318426#page-1

46% of homosexual men reported homosexual molestation as children. 22% percent of lesbian women reported homosexual molestation as children.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by korzym12

http://link.springer.com/article/10....3318426#page-1

46% of homosexual men reported homosexual molestation as children. 22% percent of lesbian women reported homosexual molestation as children.

That's one old ass study. I'd be shocked if the percentage of straight men reporting being sexually abused is higher since that 2001 study. 7% of heterosexual men reported being molested. Sadly that number is probably much higher.

[JohnnyB]

[jayswin]

I don't know if you're taking a shot at us or just trying to be funny, but personally I'd love it if they skating out in those.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

I'm talking about your posting history, not just in the regard to this issue.
I was curious to know why you thought that all Russians are such pieces of sh**. Is it just personal experience? Have you ever been to Russia?

What have I posted about Russians elsewhere? And please, if you want to try to corner me at least attempt to be accurate. I quite clearly have said that I find those who support this law to be scum, not all Russians, and that I feel for those who are opposed and unable to effect change.

I will say that I can't really recall many notable pleasant experiences with native Russians, I have however had a few negative ones. I don't think all Russians are bad, but there are certainly elements of the culture that I don't love, although we could all say that about a number of cultures that are foreign to us.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

Post 632 does not answer my question.
Not sure what the purpose is of the rest of your post?
To defend Valo's position that every citizen in Russia is a piece of sh**?
Russian government is corrupt to the core, Russian people have the misfortune of carrying that burden, with little that can be done.

In regards to the location, most of the events will take place in the mountains that should have plenty of snow. Just like Whistler to Vancouver. One could argue that Vancouver was a crappier choice for winter olympics

Quite clearly not my position. It seems your reading ability may be the issue here.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

Do you have proof of this?

Well it appears that I was incorrect. So the majority of Russians are educated and still hold these bigoted views, I didn't think it could get worse but it does.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

Post 632 does not answer my question.
Not sure what the purpose is of the rest of your post?
To defend Valo's position that every citizen in Russia is a piece of sh**?
Russian government is corrupt to the core, Russian people have the misfortune of carrying that burden, with little that can be done.

In regards to the location, most of the events will take place in the mountains that should have plenty of snow. Just like Whistler to Vancouver. One could argue that Vancouver was a crappier choice for winter olympics

I'm not sure what the purpose is of any of your posts. All you seem to be doing is chasing around and nitpicking a single poster as opposed to trying to contribute to the conversation at all. You asked where someone got their opinion from on this topic, he said he got it from the media on this topic before this specific discussion started. Seemed pretty simple to me. If that wasn't your question then perhaps you should take a step back and make sure you are communicating clearly before continuing your awkward attack.

The point of the rest of my post was to discuss the human rights issues in Russia, as it was related to my previous posts in this discussion.

[bubbsy]

i can't wait till real hockey related threads move this thread off the first page.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by WilderPegasus

Wow! You have some serious emotional issues if you can't cope with such an insignificant action on someone else's part.

Maybe so, but I doubt I'm alone; I know plenty of people who have certain topics on which ignorance makes them angry. Casual, ignorant bigotry against gays really does upset me, to a point where I'd really prefer to just not be around the person in question.

You remind me of those extreme pro-lifers/pro-choicers in that they are so certain that they are correct about a complex issue that they demonize anyone who doesn't agree 100% with their viewpoint on a complex issue.

It's not a complex issue. There aren't really any shades of grey here. If you are "anti-gay", if you think gays are lesser in some way, deviant, unnatural, or however you want to put it... you're wrong.

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

Poor choice of words and utter garbage.

I'm not sure what words you would prefer, but anyone who espouses the view that homosexuality is an illness that the government should take steps to insulate from the "normal" population is a pretty crappy excuse for a person, in my estimation. As I said above, I don't want to be around anyone like that.

[WilderPegasus]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Maybe so, but I doubt I'm alone; I know plenty of people who have certain topics on which ignorance makes them angry. Casual, ignorant bigotry against gays really does upset me, to a point where I'd really prefer to just not be around the person in question.

It's not a complex issue. There aren't really any shades of grey here. If you are "anti-gay", if you think gays are lesser in some way, deviant, unnatural, or however you want to put it... you're wrong.

I'm not sure what words you would prefer, but anyone who espouses the view that homosexuality is an illness that the government should take steps to insulate from the "normal" population is a pretty crappy excuse for a person, in my estimation. As I said above, I don't want to be around anyone like that.

That seems like classic black and white thinking. Have you ever been tested for borderline personality disorder?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by WilderPegasus

That seems like classic black and white thinking. Have you ever been tested for borderline personality disorder?

I'm not sure what the grey area could possibly be here. This isn't a circumstantial situation, there are no circumstances under which it is okay to treat someone as less than equal due to their sexual preference. It is a completely black and white issue.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by WilderPegasus

That seems like classic black and white thinking. Have you ever been tested for borderline personality disorder?

Have you? Its a pretty thin line between that question and a personal attack (I'd even say you crossed the line).

But hey, that's the whole point of the thread, isn't it? People in Russia having a black and white view about the LGTB community... and then us having an opinion about their opinion.

Perhaps in your mind it is cool to have a "grey" way of thinking when it comes to human rights. Sometimes its kinda okay to have slaves and other times it is only sorta bad to beat your wife. And you never know when you need to bring in your family from India to ritually murder your daughters because you have some crazy idea of family honour.

No point in getting all "black and white" about it.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Have you? Its a pretty thin line between that question and a personal attack (I'd even say you crossed the line).

But hey, that's the whole point of the thread, isn't it? People in Russia having a black and white view about the LGTB community... and then us having an opinion about their opinion.

Perhaps in your mind it is cool to have a "grey" way of thinking when it comes to human rights. Sometimes its kinda okay to have slaves and other times it is only sorta bad to beat your wife. And you never know when you need to bring in your family from India to ritually murder your daughters because you have some crazy idea of family honour.

No point in getting all "black and white" about it.

I would say the problem is "black and white", but the solution is definitely not "black and white".

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I would say the problem is "black and white", but the solution is definitely not "black and white".

I guess it depends on what you're talking about. If we're talking about whether or not a law like this is acceptable under any circumstances then then solution is pretty damn black and white, it simply is not acceptable. If you're talking about the solution to widespread bigotry then we're talking about a much larger and nuanced topic.

[strombad]

Just as an aside while you folks debate individual posters instead of the actual discussion (here's lookin at you WilderPegasus!), I wanted to point out something interesting.

Pointman harped endlessly about how this fine was "only" 150 dollars (157 Canadian to be exact). Which is fine and dandy, until you consider this:
Canadian minimum wage (we'll call it the average): 10.25/h (CAD)
Russia minimum wage: 0.94/h (CAD)

Meaning, if you make minimum wage or near it AND working 40 hours a week, you are making 150.40 (CAD) a month in Russia, compared to 1640.00 in Canada.

It's not definitive or overly telling, I just thought it was worth pointing out so that Pointman's casual insistence on "150" was taken in a different light, as unlike in Canada, there is a very large stretch between those making a little and those making a lot in Russia. All told, the average monthly wages are similar, but this law could have a detrimental financial effect on some people there.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by strombad

It's not definitive or overly telling, I just thought it was worth pointing out so that Pointman's casual insistence on "150" was taken in a different light, as unlike in Canada, there is a very large stretch between those making a little and those making a lot in Russia. All told, the average monthly wages are similar, but this law could have a detrimental financial effect on some people there.

While I'm certainly concerned about practical impacts of the law on people in Russia (though probably more concerned about less obvious ones resulting from the fostering of a culture of bigotry and tacit support of homophobic views), it's a separate issue, in my view, from the basic principle here. The fine could be ten dollars or five. It's the actual behaviour that's banned thereunder that is really concerning, from where I sit. There's no excuse for accepting a law based on this premise - that gay people are somehow inherently associated with harm to children - on the basis that the impact of the law would be minimal. I fully recognize that's not what you're doing, but I'm just underscoring the point that the issue isn't whether the fine prescribed is a large or small amount of money.

Originally Posted by WilderPegasus

That seems like classic black and white thinking. Have you ever been tested for borderline personality disorder?

Oh, is the discussion no longer about LGBT rights in Russia and now about your internet-doctor diagnosis of my mental faculties? This doesn't add anything to the discussion, it's just a personal attack, which I'm not sure is allowed on this forum.

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I would say the problem is "black and white", but the solution is definitely not "black and white".

I certainly agree with this; there are multiple approaches to the problem and reasonable people can disagree with respect to the most effective method.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

While I'm certainly concerned about practical impacts of the law on people in Russia (though probably more concerned about less obvious ones resulting from the fostering of a culture of bigotry and tacit support of homophobic views), it's a separate issue, in my view, from the basic principle here. The fine could be ten dollars or five. It's the actual behaviour that's banned thereunder that is really concerning, from where I sit. There's no excuse for accepting a law based on this premise - that gay people are somehow inherently associated with harm to children - on the basis that the impact of the law would be minimal. I fully recognize that's not what you're doing, but I'm just underscoring the point that the issue isn't whether the fine prescribed is a large or small amount of money.

Uh, yeah buddy, we're all more concerned with a law restricting the rights of homosexuals than we are with the financial impact, welcome to the conversation.
However, to make a good point, a valid and strong point, you have to debilitate the defendable aspects on the other side of the argument. One defendable aspect: cheap fine! How do you debilitate it? Point out how relatively expensive it actually is!

Kind of debate 101 there. If all you're going to do is repeat "the law is wrong" over and over without addressing the intricacies or failures of particular parts of the law in relation to other things, then your argument isn't going to catch much ground with the "other" side. Just a heads up.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I would say the problem is "black and white", but the solution is definitely not "black and white".

Which solution?

The ultimate resolution that we would hope for is for Russia to reform its ways and correct its stance on all human rights issues. They could even become a world leader in human rights and start setting the example for the rest of us to follow.

The best way to get to this resolution isn't a "black or white" option, the issue is that Russia will not take the best path to get to the desired goal as they are currently taking steps that move them in the wrong direction. Hopefully having the spotlight pointed directly at them will give them pause and help them start moving in the right direction again.