I don't see how anything that Obama said would incite the reaction that your kid's coach had or his teammates. Unfortunately, Fox News and their ilk grab snippets of the speech and say that Obama is dividing our society. Maybe he should watched his words, knowing that Fox News would do what they always do, but I think he shouldn't have to worry about that.
Do I think that Zimmerman should have been found guilty based on Florida's laws? Probably not (although I think the prosecution did a terrible job). Do I think the Zimmerman violated Martin's civil rights? I think a good case could be made based mainly around racial profiling although I am not sure what the law says in regard to a regular citizen and racial profiling. Does anyone here?
The one thing I am worried most about being a father in one month is how am I going to deal with this stuff when my child faces it (my wife is black). I can do all the studying and reading about this possible, but my biggest fear is that I can't relate to some of the obstacles she is going to face and I will be powerless to remove them.
I see racism everyday. People who think they can say things around me because I am "one of them", People reacting to my wife and I being together, people not getting promotions that deserve them, kids teasing other kids because of their race (something they are taught), the list goes on... I think this is a pretty good article on the view of black people today in the US:
The stuff on this list is not made up. I see it all of the time.
Racism is dividing this country. As far as the Zimmerman case goes, I think what happened was a trigger happy idiot was over zealous about a kid who had an attitude, and the result was tragic- but I think given the actual laws (as effed up as they are), there was no choice for the jury but to acquit Zimmerman with the evidence presented. (I hate to state the obvious here and not to be sarcastic, but the same thing would have happened in Austin- Texas is the most effed up place in this country when it comes to gun laws) The media (not just FOX, ALL of the media) has made this about race. I think again, we should focus more on gun control and asinine laws to prevent this crap in the future. Obama, while his intentions might be good (I doubt it), should just know better.
Good luck with the baby! Best wishes for a healthy delivery, and congrats!
I don't see how anything that Obama said would incite the reaction that your kid's coach had or his teammates. Unfortunately, Fox News and their ilk grab snippets of the speech and say that Obama is dividing our society. Maybe he should watched his words, knowing that Fox News would do what they always do, but I think he shouldn't have to worry about that.
Do I think that Zimmerman should have been found guilty based on Florida's laws? Probably not (although I think the prosecution did a terrible job). Do I think the Zimmerman violated Martin's civil rights? I think a good case could be made based mainly around racial profiling although I am not sure what the law says in regard to a regular citizen and racial profiling. Does anyone here?
The one thing I am worried most about being a father in one month is how am I going to deal with this stuff when my child faces it (my wife is black). I can do all the studying and reading about this possible, but my biggest fear is that I can't relate to some of the obstacles she is going to face and I will be powerless to remove them.
I see racism everyday. People who think they can say things around me because I am "one of them", People reacting to my wife and I being together, people not getting promotions that deserve them, kids teasing other kids because of their race (something they are taught), the list goes on... I think this is a pretty good article on the view of black people today in the US:
Obama, while his intentions might be good (I doubt it), should just know better.
Good luck with the baby! Best wishes for a healthy delivery, and congrats!
What do you think he was trying to accomplish with his speech? He stated that the judicial process worked as it should and pretty much stated don't expect federal charges. You think he wants to cause more of a racial divide? What would be his endgame?
Thanks for the well wishes.
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What do you think he was trying to accomplish with his speech? He stated that the judicial process worked as it should and pretty much stated don't expect federal charges. You think he wants to cause more of a racial divide? What would be his endgame?
Thanks for the well wishes.
Positive approval ratings, the endgame of every politician/president.
Positive approval ratings, the endgame of every politician/president.
Generally 2nd term presidents don't care that much. They no longer have to run for office any more. It's why they usually get more things done in the 2nd term. In that regard, however, Obama has disappointed.
Generally 2nd term presidents don't care that much. They no longer have to run for office any more. It's why they usually get more things done in the 2nd term. In that regard, however, Obama has disappointed.
Clinton and Bush didn't care that they were making asses of themselves and mocking the Presidency, true. Obama is the first black President he wants history to be kind to him. He is entirely too apologetic in my opinion, but I don't doubt for one minute that he wants his legacy as President to be 'I made a difference.'
Three public opinion polls in the last few days regarding the Zimmerman verdict, the first two are national by Rasmussen and Huffington Post/You Gov and then a Florida-only poll by a Tampa area daily newspaper.
In the Rasmussen Poll, nationally, 48% agreed with the verdict and 34% disagreed. The remainder weren't sure.
In the Huffington Post/YouGov poll, nationally, 46% of whites agreed with the not guilty verdict and 14% of blacks agreed with not guilty
12% of whites would have found him guilty of murder while 36% of blacks would have found for murder.
22% of whites would have found for manslaughter and 39% of blacks would have found for the same.
20% of whites weren't sure and 11% of blacks weren't sure.
So summarizing for Huffington Post/YouGov, 34% of whites would have found him guilty of something and 46% would have found him not guilty. 75% of blacks would have found him guilty of something and 14% would have found him not guilty.
35% of whites were disappointed or angry in the verdict and 78% of blacks were same.
The poll didn't announce Hispanic findings publicly.
The Florida-only poll found 56% of the state "accepts" the verdict and 63% felt Zimmerman should not be charged with a federal hate crime.
53% of Floridians felt Zimmerman engaged in a justifiable act of self-defence. 27% felt he engaged in an act of unjustified racially motivated violence and 13% felt he engaged in an act of unjustified violence, but not racially motivated.
Only 13% of Floridians felt the state should repeal Stand Your Ground legislation.
Only 10% of Floridians felt that race relations have improved under Obama's presidency.
Not sure if there are other polls out there.
Cowperson
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Lord Almighty this is getting ridiculous. Honest question, but did you even read or listen to the transcripts? Because if you did, I have no idea where you are getting this "don't go after him, let the police handle it" nonsense that no one said. Please, do me a favour and read the transcripts:
Got that? The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him, Zimmerman replied yes, the dispatcher explained that that wasn't necessary. Zimmerman acknowledged this which is followed by the sound of Zimmerman's pursuit slowing down. Seconds later he states to the dispatcher "He ran." Zimmerman then tells the dispatcher his name and tries to co-ordinate a place for the police to meet him. Now how does any of that fit into the ridiculous narrative that you posted above?
You guys know why the jury found Zimmerman not guilty? Because it seems that unlike many of the posters in this thread, they actually reviewed the evidence instead of simply allowing the media to form their opinions for them.
I don't read it that way at all. To me it says stop whatever you are doing, now. Zimmerman replies okay, so that should have been the end of it.
So if he shot first how did the other guy get on top of him mma style? Wouldn't he of been dead?
Not sure, how do you pull a gun out when you are on the bottom of a grounding and pounding MMA STYLE, I 've seen that on TV, and I would guess it must be hard to pull out a gun and shoot someone in the chest. I'd guess you'd have to get the gun somehow behind you head and then shoot, as usually the guys chest is at about your chin.
Not sure, how do you pull a gun out when you are on the bottom of a grounding and pounding MMA STYLE, I 've seen that on TV, and I would guess it must be hard to pull out a gun and shoot someone in the chest. I'd guess you'd have to get the gun somehow behind you head and then shoot, as usually the guys chest is at about your chin.
I do agree it would be hard , but it still would mean that he didn't shoot first cause apparently there were witnesses that saw dead guy on top hitting.
Jumping into the middle of this Obama speech back and forth. True Obama may have said the system worked the way it was supposed to. But that is only half the issue. The other half is the very real suspicion of African Americans, especially the further south you go. Whether the ruling was right within the bounds of the law, and whether Obama sees that or not, still doesn't change the fact is that race is still a big issue, and probably was in this case. If there wasn't obvious problems with race in this country and specifically this state, why did a black women get 20 years for firing her gun into the air? Still can't figure out the people who want to bury their heads in the sand on that part of the debate, but whatever.
As far as Obama making a comment on racism, I think he's perfectly within his bounds to do it, and it's the right thing to do even if voters do take it poorly.
The funny thing is if a white president said the same thing, he probably would have been called a hero or compassionate visionary. It might have been a moment of sober thought for the American voter. He definitely wouldn't have been called out over it, the optics just aren't the same. But because Obama is black, he has to straddle a line, which I think he is doing very well.
I think it also shows how the racism is still very much there, it's just more subversive than it used to be. As I said, it wouldn't have been an issue if a white president said it.
Last edited by Daradon; 07-20-2013 at 09:50 PM.
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I do agree it would be hard , but it still would mean that he didn't shoot first cause apparently there were witnesses that saw dead guy on top hitting.
are we talking the same language here? shoot meaning a bullet from a gun? He shot first and it was the only shot fired.
Actually first time it was brought was about a year ago. Also, this family member (who the defense team is who identified who it was, she was anonymous previously to that) called the Sanford PD and told them that good ole George and his mother were very racist towards black people, pretty quickly after the event occurred.
Sonner said Zimmerman and his wife served as mentors to two teenage children of an African-American woman. Though funding was cut for the program, the couple continued their efforts on their own, taking the 13-year-old girl and 14-year-old boy on outings to a mall, a science center and a basketball game. They also helped in a fundraiser for an African-American church, the lawyer said.
He dated a black girl and took her to the prom.
I've read mixed reports about what Witness 6 said. some have said that she accused Zimmerman of being a racist. Some have accused his mother of being racist. I also find it a bit suspicious that she called this in after the event occurred.
So unless Zimmerman was preparing for his legal defense for shooting a black kid back in high school I'm a bit suspicious of the story. His actions in the above certainly don't point to him being a racist.
In terms of the whole molestation claims by the same witness, until it ends up in court its just a claim.
It seems like people are working very hard in painting this guy with a racist brush, its kinda sad.
Even in the 9-11 transcript the only time that color came up was when he was asked to describe the person. He replied that he looked black, he was wearing a hoodie jeans or sweats and tennis shoes.
The dispatcher asked what he was doing, and Zimmerman replied he was looking at all the houses.
Its kinda funny because I believe that the whole racial profiling comes from the description that the police asked for.
Its very possible that Zimmerman was more suspicious about the actions of "looking at all the houses" as opposed to appearance. Especially in a neighborhood that had robberies and a home invasion.
We will never know what happened between the time that Zimmerman stopped pursuit, said that he lost Trayvan and the fight between the two. I'm still convinced that this was a tragic incident caused by a lot of different mistakes by two people.
I'm still convinced that the court and the jury made the right decision in this case.
Its tragic that a teenager is dead.
Its an amazing and interesting and sad piece of history that has taught us the power of the media and their ability to do anything to manufacture stories (editing tapes etc.)
Its amazing and sad how both sides have completely jumped into their own individual band wagons on this and how this is creating a massive split in the United States.
I don't think there will ever be healing for any of the parties involved. There won't be any healing for a long time between the various groups in the States.
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Jumping into the middle of this Obama speech back and forth. True Obama may have said the system worked the way it was supposed to. But that is only half the issue. The other half is the very real suspicion of African Americans, especially the further south you go. Whether the ruling was right within the bounds of the law, and whether Obama sees that or not, still doesn't change the fact is that race is still a big issue, and probably was in this case. If there wasn't obvious problems with race in this country and specifically this state, why did a black women get 20 years for firing her gun into the air? Still can't figure out the people who want to bury their heads in the sand on that part of the debate, but whatever.
As far as Obama making a comment on racism, I think he's perfectly within his bounds to do it, and it's the right thing to do even if voters do take it poorly.
The funny thing is if a white president said the same thing, he probably would have been called a hero or compassionate visionary. It might have been a moment of sober thought for the American voter. He definitely wouldn't have been called out over it, the optics just aren't the same. But because Obama is black, he has to straddle a line, which I think he is doing very well.
I think it also shows how the racism is still very much there, it's just more subversive than it used to be. As I said, it wouldn't have been an issue if a white president said it.
Ok, I am going to spell this out- so that I hope it makes sense. Again, not trying to be sarcastic at all, no smart-ass tones involved.
If Obama made a random comment or addressed the press about racism, he would be in his bounds to do it. I mean, he's the first black POTUS, of course the topic is going to come up. The fact that he was voted in is a huge step for the US towards racial equality and I think he has every reason to address race issues.
HOWEVER- HUGE difference making comments about ONE case in which the media is using to create racial tension. It's completely irresponsible- regardless of what colour Obama is. He is President over 315 MILLION people, and there are over 16, 000 homicides in the US per year, and over 11, 000 of those homicides are caused by firearms. As POTUS- singling out a controversial case and talking about racial tensions is IRRESPONSIBLE because he is the leader of this country, the free world- the one who can decide whether or not we can drop a nuclear bomb or go to war- he's the Commander in Chief of the United States Armed Forces and he's arguably the most powerful man in the world. Directing his attention to a specific case for the sole purpose to talk about racial issues that really have NOTHING to do with the case in the first place is just moronic and unnecessary on his part. Clinton was a dumbass with women but he was very diplomatic. Obama needs to focus more on being diplomatic and addressing this country's needs as a whole. If he wants to give a speech on the importance of improving race relations, he has every right. He should not however, announce his opinion on a specific high profile case which he knows (regardless of whatever intentions you think he may have had)- he KNOWS will cause more problems.
I sincerely hope that you can understand this view point and see that it does have some merit.
Ok, I am going to spell this out- so that I hope it makes sense. Again, not trying to be sarcastic at all, no smart-ass tones involved.
If Obama made a random comment or addressed the press about racism, he would be in his bounds to do it. I mean, he's the first black POTUS, of course the topic is going to come up. The fact that he was voted in is a huge step for the US towards racial equality and I think he has every reason to address race issues.
HOWEVER- HUGE difference making comments about ONE case in which the media is using to create racial tension. It's completely irresponsible- regardless of what colour Obama is. He is President over 315 MILLION people, and there are over 16, 000 homicides in the US per year, and over 11, 000 of those homicides are caused by firearms. As POTUS- singling out a controversial case and talking about racial tensions is IRRESPONSIBLE because he is the leader of this country, the free world- the one who can decide whether or not we can drop a nuclear bomb or go to war- he's the Commander in Chief of the United States Armed Forces and he's arguably the most powerful man in the world. Directing his attention to a specific case for the sole purpose to talk about racial issues that really have NOTHING to do with the case in the first place is just moronic and unnecessary on his part. Clinton was a dumbass with women but he was very diplomatic. Obama needs to focus more on being diplomatic and addressing this country's needs as a whole. If he wants to give a speech on the importance of improving race relations, he has every right. He should not however, announce his opinion on a specific high profile case which he knows (regardless of whatever intentions you think he may have had)- he KNOWS will cause more problems.
I sincerely hope that you can understand this view point and see that it does have some merit.
Oh, I understand the viewpoint, and it does have merit, I just think it's worthwhile enough to comment on it. That perhaps the possible benefits, may outweigh the possible problems. This case is indicative of many other cases going on, and the attitudes and values of the country as a whole. He has to comment on this one cause it's the one people are talking about right now. You have to remember, the press are asking him about his feelings anyway. It's not like he's just freewheeling it up there. It's on the minds of the people of the country. He's been asked directly about the case. About all aspects of it. He has to address it somehow. He spoke honestly. You may think it was undiplomatic and irresponsible. I have to disagree. I think he straddled the line as well as possible while being honest and saying something of value.
If people are going to act like idiots because of what he said, it's on them. It's not like he's fanning the flames here, he's just talking honestly, and quite frankly making a few important points.
I think the bolded part is what I disagree with. First of all, I completely disagree that race had no part in it. As I mentioned, in this thread and a few others recently, I think a lot of people have been underestimating racism and it's bounds. A lot of people don't seem to see it unless it's right up in your face. Unless it involves active hate of another group. It's not usually like that. It's subversive. It's often in your head without you even knowing it. This case had every example of racial profiling. As I mentioned in my post above, some people don't see it that way. Fine.
But even disagreeing on that, it's still hard for him not to comment on the case or the issues of them, including race. Like I said, his comments don't exist in a vacuum, he's being asked about all aspects of this case as it's a pretty big deal in the country right now. Gun violence, stand your ground, Florida, and yes, racism and racial profiling. He's being straight up asked about them. And he answered.
Lastly, it's not like he isn't answering for all Americans, or pandering to a specific group. I think there are a lot of people that care about possible racial undertones of this case beside African Americans.
Last edited by Daradon; 07-21-2013 at 02:20 AM.
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I've read mixed reports about what Witness 6 said. some have said that she accused Zimmerman of being a racist. Some have accused his mother of being racist. I also find it a bit suspicious that she called this in after the event occurred.
What are you suspicious about? She wanted to be anonymous, and we still don't know who she actually is just that she's a cousin (and only that because of Zimmerman's lawyers). She isn't looking for fame. I am not saying he is definitely guilty of being a molester, but she said she felt comfortable coming out about it now because he can't do anything to hurt her now in retaliation because of the focus on him.
I don't read it that way at all. To me it says stop whatever you are doing, now. Zimmerman replies okay, so that should have been the end of it.
Whether you read it as that is one thing, but both the transcripts and the actual audio seem to indicate that once he was told that he didn't have to "do that" he stopped and tried to set up a place for the police to meet him.
I'm sure quite a few people have not even bothered to listen to this (not directing this at you but it's pretty obvious that flameswin is one of these people), but tell me where Zimmerman crossed the line and disobeyed the dispatcher here:
Sure, it's entirely possible that once Zimmerman hung up the phone that he started looking for Martin again and then began harassing him which escalated to the fight, but that is simply baseless speculation. The tape indicates that he saw someone suspicious, called 911 and described the person and what he was doing, stopped following Martin when he was told that they did not want him followed, and then set up a meeting place for the police. That all sounds very reasonable to me.
Great, I'm trying to figure out what Zethrynn is talking about and now I have to figure out what you are talking about.
What is there to figure out? The saying he shot first and asked questions later, does not really fit with what happened. If it did none of what was witnessed would of happened.
