Black teen shot and killed by neighborhood watch in Orlando gated community

[blankall]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

I know that but it's still a stupid law - in this country you can't use deadly force for self defence unless your life is threaten - so another difference I believe beside the concealed weapon

It's the same law in Florida. The only difference is that in Florida under the "stand your ground" law, you don't have to make a reasonable effort to retreat. Under regular self-defence laws, including those in Canada, you have to make a reasonable effort to retreat.

Like I said before though, this was not a stand your ground case. The jury in this case decided that he did, in fact, have a reasonable belief that his life was threatened.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

In testimony to the FBI, Detective Sorino, aside from giving an opinion that race probably wasn't a factor in Zimmerman's decision-making that night, said five burglaries in the neighbourhood in the prior year and a half were linked to a gang called the "Goons" who typically wore hoodies.

Detective Sorino felt that was reason enough for a neighbourhood watch captain to be suspicious of someone in a hoody wandering around in the rain late at night.

Sorino's comments to the FBI are here:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/serino-fbi-report

Interestingly, in his testimony to the FBI, Sorino says he would have preferred Zimmerman stayed in his vehicle waiting for law enforcement OR, second option, go up to Martin and "identified himself as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party's concern."

As well, the one juror who has spoken was asked directly if race was an issue in deliberations among the six of them - she said none of them brought up race as relevent topic to the facts under consideration.

Zimmerman mentored two black children earlier in his life and a black woman testified on his behalf at the trial.

Black America probably has plenty of other examples of racial profiling in the country to promote their justifiable cause. Why their leaders would be latching onto this very tenuous case to further their cause is both odd and starting to look painfully ridiculous.

When a black President and a black Attorney General quietly let a call for a Federal hate crime probe die a natural, deserved death in the coming months, that should be pretty telling.

Cowperson

She also referred to Martin as "a boy of color", so there's that.

I don't think this case was, or should have been, predominantly about race, but to pretend it's not part of it is ridiculous.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't think people mean "racist", in that Zimmerman has malice towards black people, but rather that he profiles him based on race. A lot of people do this and don't even realize they are being racist.

Personally, I think he was profiling Martin, but his clothes (and what they implied about his social status), as well as his age played a bigger role than race.

I remember a time when I was 18, I was driving home late at night in my old beater and returning a movie at the after hours dropoff at the store. A cop car pulled up behind me so I couldn't leave and he confronted me about why I was there. I guarantee you that if I was a 40 year old driving a nice car, there would have been no confrontation. I think the same type of profiling was happening here.

Yep, 100% agreed. He might not be racist but there definitely was racial profiling going on. The same way that the people at the airport aren't racist but it's no coincidence the brown people are always the last ones of the plane to make it through customs.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't think people mean "racist", in that Zimmerman has malice towards black people, but rather that he profiles him based on race. A lot of people do this and don't even realize they are being racist.

Personally, I think he was profiling Martin, but his clothes (and what they implied about his social status), as well as his age played a bigger role than race.

I remember a time when I was 18, I was driving home late at night in my old beater and returning a movie at the after hours dropoff at the store. A cop car pulled up behind me so I couldn't leave and he confronted me about why I was there. I guarantee you that if I was a 40 year old driving a nice car, there would have been no confrontation. I think the same type of profiling was happening here.

I had that experience a few times as well at a younger age. Probably my close-set eyes and low criminal forehead.

As Detective Sorino indicated in his testimony under questioning by the defence, it is not illegal to suspect someone of criminal activities.

All of us make judgements about people all day, every day, people you know or perfect strangers.

It is not illegal for a common citizen to think: "There's a black guy in a hoodie. He MIGHT be up to no good. I'm phoning the cops."

It is illegal for a law enforcement professional to think and act upon that same sentence.

Racial profiling is the use of an individual’s race or ethnicity by law enforcement personnel as a key factor in deciding whether to engage in enforcement (e.g. make a traffic stop or arrest). The practice is controversial and is illegal in many jurisdictions. It should not be confused with offender profiling, which is an genuine investigative tool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling

That's why there was some emphasis before the trial on whether or not Zimmerman really was a self-appointed volunteer watch captain or acting in an official capacity on behalf of the condo association. One thing is different than the other. The condo board settled for $1.5 million with the Martin family to avoid finding out the truth one way or another in court.

The prosecution did not come anywhere close to establishing that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin. It is quite obvious Zimmerman engaged in "offender profiling" which is legitimate even if he was acting in an official capacity.

You're getting into government thought control if you're trying to tell common citizens it's illegal to form negative opinions about people they encounter on a day to day basis. Every one of us engages every day in the normal activity of sizing people up and forming first impressions/opinions about them.

We can probably all agree law enforcement professionals have a duty to be more disciplined in this regard, for one thing because of the power the state entrusts them with, and racial profiling legislation is there for that reason.

Cowperson

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

This whole back in forth about "race" when it appears it wasn't much of a factor - is totally drowning out the real issue - Americas gun laws, Florida's syg/self defence laws.

Bottom line you kill someone and your life is not in danger - you should go to jail

Could not agree more. If one looks at the situation from far away it's a scenario that's played out a million times before: Two young guys with chips on their shoulders and previous histories of violence engage each other. The pretenses under which doesn't really matter, especially since the only witnes was Z and he can pretty much say whatever the hell he wants because the other witness got shot in the heart. The only factor that propels this from a schoolyard scrap is the handgun that Americans love so much. Two guys fight, one ends up shot dead with a widely available, easily concealable death machine. It happens every day in the USA.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by nik-

You're not wrong. People who think race had nothing to do with this are living in a fantasy world.

I then have to ask.....going forward is it true that anytime a white person and a minority engage in a confrontation, no matter if someone carries a gun or not, it has to be racially motivated?

Is there any scenario, when those of two different ethnicities engage in a physical or verbal disagreement that leads to one or the other injured or worse, that race has to be part of the equation?

If the answer is no....then why MUST it be part of this case? As all evidence points to the contrary.

[calumniate]

What I don't understand is that Zimmer was caught lying numerous times, hid the fact that he was training MMA and taking university level defense theory and law, is 29 years old and a SOLID 180 lbs, and he can't take on a 17 year old 155 pounder? Did he just toss the fight or was Martin actually capable of taking this guy?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by calumniate

What I don't understand is that Zimmer was caught lying numerous times, hid the fact that he was training MMA and taking university level defense theory and law, is 29 years old and a SOLID 180 lbs, and he can't take on a 17 year old 155 pounder? Did he just toss the fight or was Martin actually capable of taking this guy?

Since Martin had markups on his hands and Zimmerman had markups on his face. I would play the assume card and state that Martin threw the first shot.

This isn't the movies, it doesn't matter if you have a 5 inch height advantage and a 20 pound weight advantage. In the real world if you take a straight shot to the face your going down. MMA training means nothing if your put in a vulnerable position, that's why MMA fights go on forever.

Add to that Zimmerman looks like he's in terrible shape, Martin in good shape and probably a lot quicker.

To add to the profiling stuff. And playing devils advocate on the profiling.

If I remember the testimony, Martin was cutting through backyards wearing a hoody at night in a neighborhood that had experienced a I guess what you call a rash of robberies.

It wasn't like he was just walking down the sidewalk. So while I still fail to see racial profiling, I can see criminal profiling based on observed behavior if that's what Zimmerman saw.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by calumniate

What I don't understand is that Zimmer was caught lying numerous times, hid the fact that he was training MMA and taking university level defense theory and law, is 29 years old and a SOLID 180 lbs, and he can't take on a 17 year old 155 pounder? Did he just toss the fight or was Martin actually capable of taking this guy?

Zimmerman is 5'7'' and a doughy 180lbs. He has several double chins. He was also taking an MMA cardio class several years earlier, not MMA:

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news...immerman-case/

However, a UGer familiar the case, FredEttishFan, noted that Zimmerman trained at a gym that offers MMA conditioning classes, which bear the same resemblance to MMA that cardio kickboxing does to Tyrone Spong. The prosecution was not familiar enough with the sport to know what while an escape from mount (where Zimmerman allegedly found himself vs Martin) is taught in the first week, or even day of real MMA training, it is not covered at all in cardio MMA classes.

"His university level defence theory and law class" was an entirely academic pre-law class that had no physical training. He attended at Seminole State College, where he was taking courses in Criminal Justice. I don't know how that qualifies him in any way to fight. I think you should take a look at your average lawyer and law student and see what kind of physical shape they are in.

Either way, it's a moot point. It doesn't matter what kind of training Zimmerman had. There was a witness who described the scene as :

One eye-witness statement given the night of the shooting describes "a black male, wearing a dark colored 'hoodie' on top of a white or Hispanic male who was yelling for help." The witness said that the black male was throwing punches "MMA [mixed martial arts] style." After hearing a "pop," he saw the black male "laid out on the grass."[141][142] When the witness was subsequently interviewed weeks later by a different agency, the witness said he thought that the black male was either punching or pinning the lighter skinned male underneath him. He was no longer certain who was calling for help, having not seen their mouths in the dark. He was still certain that the black male had been on top of the lighter-skinned male

Forensic evidence also showed Martin was on top at the moment he was shot.

Also, how did Zimmerman hide his education? Police documents showed that Zimmerman was promoting his education and association with the legal field:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/us...ting.html?_r=0

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by calumniate

What I don't understand is that Zimmer was caught lying numerous times, hid the fact that he was training MMA and taking university level defense theory and law, is 29 years old and a SOLID 180 lbs, and he can't take on a 17 year old 155 pounder? Did he just toss the fight or was Martin actually capable of taking this guy?

Martin was in the range of 6'1" or 6" 2" and in the range of 180 lbs. Although not in evidence for the jury to see, Martin's cellphone had these self-portraits:



and



http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/23/justic...merman-defense

Zimmerman's MMA instructor testified at the trial. He described Zimmerman as a .5 - one half of a 1 - on a scale of ten in terms of fighting ability when he first arrived at his facility and Zimmerman left as a "1" (one) in terms of fighting capability, although he'd dropped a lot of weight. The MMA instructor called Zimmerman "soft" and said not at a level where he would have trusted putting him in the ring for further fight training. He called Zimmerman a "very nice man."

Detective Sorino and the other detective testified that Zimmerman's inconsistencies fell within the norm of their experience when someone is telling a story several times.

Probably one of the more devastating moments for the prosecution came when the defence asked Sorino. who was there testifying for the prosecution, if he believed Zimmernan's account, with the answer being "Yes." The jury was later instructed to ignore that comment but the damage was done.

Sorino, by the way, initially thought Zimmerman should have been prosecuted for Manslaughter.

Cowperson

[CaptainCrunch]

I never understood why a judge would have been told to ignore that comment under cross?

Its damaging to the prosecution, but that's what a cross is supposed to do.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I never understood why a judge would have been told to ignore that comment under cross?

Its damaging to the prosecution, but that's what a cross is supposed to do.

The witnesses aren't suppossed to usurp the role of the trier of fact. It's particularly unfair coming from a police officer, who is in a position of legal authority to begin with.

You can ask a police officer things like "did you have any reason to believe Zimmerman was lying", but you can't go as far as asking him a yes or no question to the key element of the case.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Martin was in the range of 6'1" or 6" 2" and in the range of 180 lbs. Although not in evidence for the jury to see, Martin's cellphone had these self-portraits:



and



http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/23/justic...merman-defense

Zimmerman's MMA instructor testified at the trial. He described Zimmerman as a .5 - one half of a 1 - on a scale of ten in terms of fighting ability when he first arrived at his facility and Zimmerman left as a "1" (one) in terms of fighting capability, although he'd dropped a lot of weight. The MMA instructor called Zimmerman "soft" and said not at a level where he would have trusted putting him in the ring for further fight training. He called Zimmerman a "very nice man."

Detective Sorino and the other detective testified that Zimmerman's inconsistencies fell within the norm of their experience when someone is telling a story several times.

Probably one of the more devastating moments for the prosecution came when the defence asked Sorino. who was there testifying for the prosecution, if he believed Zimmernan's account, with the answer being "Yes." The jury was later instructed to ignore that comment but the damage was done.

Sorino, by the way, initially thought Zimmerman should have been prosecuted for Manslaughter.

Cowperson

What exactly do those pictures show? They certainly don't show his size, but perhaps they provide you with a convenient way to smear the victim.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by blankall

Zimmerman is 5'7'' and a doughy 180lbs. He has several double chins. He was also taking an MMA cardio class several years earlier, not MMA:

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news...immerman-case/

"His university level defence theory and law class" was an entirely academic pre-law class that had no physical training. He attended at Seminole State College, where he was taking courses in Criminal Justice. I don't know how that qualifies him in any way to fight. I think you should take a look at your average lawyer and law student and see what kind of physical shape they are in.

Either way, it's a moot point. It doesn't matter what kind of training Zimmerman had. There was a witness who described the scene as :



Forensic evidence also showed Martin was on top at the moment he was shot.

Also, how did Zimmerman hide his education? Police documents showed that Zimmerman was promoting his education and association with the legal field:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/us...ting.html?_r=0

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by 4x4

dude. The point i made was that zimmerman would have harassed any young person in a hoodie, not just a black kid. But yeah, i'm just so sheltered, unlike your worldly self, i'd have no idea about that. Because i spent 32 of my 34 years in canada, i just simply have no comprehension of what happened in this trial. Apparently i need to move to new york and be a lawyer to be able to grasp this situation just like you, eh? No history book, or hollywood movie, or the year and a half i spent living in the most racist country ever could possibly give me an inkling into this unbelievably complex situation. There's simply no way that zimmerman was out to find the young punks that were doing b&es in his community, he was out looking for black punks.
Hey! There's a young guy in a hoodie acting suspicious! I should kill him! No, wait, he's white. He's probably just visiting his parents. Oh! There's a black kid! Get em!

Please, valo. Teach me more about this thing you call "the world". And for the record, i love your "ah, yes" opening, and the computer reference. You've hit peter12 levels of dooshy pretentiousness. Perhaps you can teach me a bit about that while you're at it.

boom baby!!!!

[calumniate]

Ok thanks for the clarifications. Yeah 1/10 in fighting probably isn't so great. Last I read was Martin was 5'8 and 150-ish pounds.. the matchup just didn't make sense to me initially.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by valo403

What exactly do those pictures show? They certainly don't show his size, but perhaps they provide you with a convenient way to smear the victim.

The bottom pictures shows that he wasn't some weakly undersized kid.

at 6-1 180 and not fat he was more then a match for Zimmerman

[nik-]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I then have to ask.....going forward is it true that anytime a white person and a minority engage in a confrontation, no matter if someone carries a gun or not, it has to be racially motivated?

Is there any scenario, when those of two different ethnicities engage in a physical or verbal disagreement that leads to one or the other injured or worse, that race has to be part of the equation?

If the answer is no....then why MUST it be part of this case? As all evidence points to the contrary.

The evidence of what Zimmerman said? Why would someone on the phone with 911, after profiling someone, say "hey I profiled this kid in my neighbourhood" or "hey, there's this black kid walking around and he looks out of place"

It doesn't happen that way.

Either way, there are obviously two sides of thought on this story that will never agree. I don't buy what Zimmerman was saying and some do. None of us will ever know. All we know is that he initiated a confrontation that resulted in someone dying and as a result, morally, I believe he should be in jail, but thanks to a ####ed up law, it's all good. If he would have stayed in his car and called the police, the kid would be alive, and that's the bottom line.

[Thor]

The Daily show did a great bit on this, pretty much sums up my disgust with the laws and application of them in Florida.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The bottom pictures shows that he wasn't some weakly undersized kid.

at 6-1 180 and not fat he was more then a match for Zimmerman

You can tell he's 6'1" 180 from a picture from chest up? Really?