Alberta Flood Watch 2013

[Slava]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Yes, the gov't funding will cover additional to insurance. Anything outside your house, like a detached garage is not covered by anyone I know in any circumstance. Same with landscaping.

Gov't funding will cover removal of landscaping due to damage, or they may pay to fix damaged items on your property within a limit. For example, they are giving $300 for damaged TV's so I don't think it is much but is something along those lines.

I got this info from the flood relief registration at the red and white.

Homeowners policies cover landscaping and outbuildings (sheds, detached garages), although the landscaping is usually a percentage and based on certain circumstances that I can't recall.

I also thought that the province was only covering enough to bring homes back to basic use? Doug Griffith was on the radio this morning and I was sure that was his comment.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by GGG

Are you an inner city person against densification? All of the hundred year old homes on subdividable lots need to be bull dozed and infilled. Perferably with higher density than just 2 SFH.

Infastructure isnt going to stop this from happening again. If there is a plan that is cost compitive with rebuild flood plain homes properly then I am all for it. If it is cheaper to flood proof and rebuild then we should do that. Keeping hundred year old homes just contributes to sprawl, increases power and heating consumption and now as we can see are at a higher risk of flooding.

If this can be fixed buy increasing berm heights on the bow and putting bike paths on them sign me up but otherwise forcing home owners to build better with assistance from the province is better.

As to the bolded part, was that the first post of mine you have ever read?

There are plenty of century homes and slightly younger on small lots in Sunnyside, a very small minority sit on larger, subdividable lots and the market over the last few years has been taking care of those (just lookup Stonebriar Crafted Homes).

You do realize we didn't flood because of the Bow breaking over the berm right? Our old inadequate storm sewers couldn't handle the influx of water coming down to them from communities up above and we got flooded as a result of that. Upgrades can be made there to at least give us a better chance next time.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

As to the bolded part, was that the first post of mine you have ever read?

There are plenty of century homes and slightly younger on small lots in Sunnyside, a very small minority sit on larger, subdividable lots and the market over the last few years has been taking care of those (just lookup Stonebriar Crafted Homes).

You do realize we didn't flood because of the Bow breaking over the berm right? Our old inadequate storm sewers couldn't handle the influx of water coming down to them from communities up above and we got flooded as a result of that. Upgrades can be made there to at least give us a better chance next time.

I have read your posts and was surprised by what I read as opposition to bulldozing and increased densification.

I do realalize that Sunnyside didnt flood from going over the berm and if in general increasing pumping capacity and storm sewer design is cheaper than bulldozing and rebuilding without basements the we should do it. But the provinces principle of if you dont do what you can as an individual then you arent covered is sound.

Its going to take a combination of measures to reduce the effect of floods and the most economic option should be chosen even if that means some peoples homes arent rebuilt.

The best example is high river or the banks of the elbow river where they have more frequent issues. Should we continue to pay multiple instances on these areas when we could move them. At some point the cost, if it is regular and predicable needs to be passed onto the property owner.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by Slava

Homeowners policies cover landscaping and outbuildings (sheds, detached garages), although the landscaping is usually a percentage and based on certain circumstances that I can't recall.

I also thought that the province was only covering enough to bring homes back to basic use? Doug Griffith was on the radio this morning and I was sure that was his comment.

Just to be clear, I was referring to this specific event, not in general. Yes, the policy covers it in theory, but all insurers in my neighborhood have said basement is sewer (possible coverage), but your detached garage is overland (zero coverage). Therefore no money from any insurance for outside your home.

Yes, I was was trying to make that point that the government will pay only to hire someone to remove the landscaping. No money is for re-landscaping. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Also, something like a lawnmower maybe covered, but you would probably get money to buy the cheapest one, a few hundred at most. You need a lawnmower though, so this is something that is basic replacement.

I have the booklet at home, and much stuff revolves around basic replacement, like $300 for a TV (which is not much of a TV). So what Griffith was saying is fully correct. No where in there talks about granite counters or marble floors. It is all very basic replacement.

To be clear I am not complaining, just relaying facts as I know them. I think it is the right thing for the AB gov't to be doing.

My problem with them has been tone. Sometimes its not what you do, but how you say it. Griffiths came out with the announcement on support, and said "this is not meant to make the affect homeowners profit from this". That sends a tone that we are all trying to get better off this. Then they follow that up with their "Flood Fringe" announcement that gave the tone that homeowners should have known better. When no one from their side ever brought up the issue in the 4 years I have lived there, in a zoned and complaint house, that they have been taking tax from me on.

This is what stresses me out more than anything, as the rest of Calgary has got this message that we are a bunch of careless greedy buggers who are trying to turn this into a financial win off Joe taxpayer. You see this attitude all over the news message boards. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In reality, we are getting fractional return from the government (which is fine). We have had to battle insurance, and many still don't know their status (which maybe fine too). Now the AB government has slapped a warning sign on our houses, and hasn't explained what the warning entails. Thus, all those houses are worthless until they come clean with details. That is what scares many.

Some may want to sell and move to higher ground, but now they can't. They can either sell at massive loss now, give the keys back to the bank, or sit and wait in a uncompleted home. They can't rebuild because no one wants to renovate their house and it be out of flood fringe code a year from now.

So we are in limbo, and we are stuck, and all we see is a bunch of snarly people (not inferring you at all) telling us we deserve it for not knowing better. That is real stress for a lot of people who honestly just went through a horrific experience. Some day I'll share the stores of people showing me destroyed letters from their terminally ill and deceased mother to her unborn grand children. Maybe then people can relax, and start to show some empathy and work with us, and not against. Sorry, but not once in this whole event did I see my damaged home, my destroyed possessions, my devastated and emotionally drained wife, and yell "Jackpot!"

[Bigtime]

Spot on buddy. What was supposed to have been another great summer before starting some serious renos in the fall has become a stress filled time with more than enough anxiety for my wife and I.

The fallout of this could have some serious demographic changes on our street, and as it stands right now it is really something great for a family with kids.

Oh and GGG, proper urban development is more than just demolish the old and build something denser in its place. You need a mix of ALL housing types, and Sunnyside is a pretty good example of this:

-single family homes
-infill side by sides and town homes
-rental homes (multiple units)
-small apartment buildings
-medium apartment buildings
-midrise high density (and more coming)

[Slava]

Thanks for the reply! I hope my questioning didn't come across as spiteful (if thats the right word in this case?)

I think that this is a hard situation from a public policy perspective though. There are "obvious" cases where people had homes completely destroyed and have nowhere to live as a result, or at least for many months. A lot of people think they have to be helped. Then you have cases where the flooding was unforeseen, or at least a truly rare event. Again, I think a lot of people would want those people covered for damages.

Of course the other side of the coin is that there were some people flooded who ought to have seen this coming....maybe not at that exact point in time, but its not entirely a shock. I would say that a lot of people don't think that they should get coverage, or at least not as much.

I think that a lot of the problem here is due to "hindsight bias". Of course its easy two weeks later to say, "yeah, that's the floodplain and people there should know better". Maybe true, maybe not. Its dangerous to use this most recent flood as the basis for a future policy though, IMO, because we can't really assess the severity with anything meaningful. Is this the new normal? Is it a 1% chance of recurrence or a 35% chance in the next say twenty years? Its impossible to quantify in any meaningful way.

I also agree that the "warning sign" slapped on these properties is hard. Its unclear, and of course people are not going to be happy. Even if this is the proper route though, and the right areas are identified in which to have this limitation, the owners of that property are going to be upset! Its a no-win situation in that respect.

[Bigtime]

AMA has approve coverage for our house. A nice bit of news this morning.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by fotze

So do they pay 100% of getting it back to how it was? How does it work?

I believe that is how it will work, so in our case an undeveloped basement with a hot water tank, furnace, and vacu-flow system.

Will be getting more info from our adjuster later in the week, so I'm sure more info will come to light.

[kevman]

Just to give some of you an idea of what some of the applicants can expect from the government I met with the disaster recovery program again last night and was able to take a peak of how much I'll be getting from the program. Trust me when I say this, I'm certainly not getting rich off of the situation. My completely redone basement suite from 2 years ago translates to:
Reimbursement of furnace repair costs and hot water tank - few grand
Drywall to 4ft. at a per foot rate - few grand
Subfloor at a square foot rate - few grand
Tools (including lawnmower etc.) at a maximum rate - few hundred

That in itself should cover most of the materials to redo the basement. However it doesn't even begin to cover the hundreds of hours of labour or lost revenue. To make matters worse the government feels that my insurance company should be paying at least half of it since it was a sewer back up (despite my insurance company denying my claim because it was "flood induced sewer back up") so my grant has been cut in half.

A few grand certainly doesn't hurt but I'm not jumping in the air in excitement either. As an added bonus I get to start fighting my insurance company again which is an awfully defeating fight to be in...

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by kevman

Just to give some of you an idea of what some of the applicants can expect from the government I met with the disaster recovery program again last night and was able to take a peak of how much I'll be getting from the program. Trust me when I say this, I'm certainly not getting rich off of the situation. My completely redone basement suite from 2 years ago translates to:
Reimbursement of furnace repair costs and hot water tank - few grand
Drywall to 4ft. at a per foot rate - few grand
Subfloor at a square foot rate - few grand
Tools (including lawnmower etc.) at a maximum rate - few hundred

That in itself should cover most of the materials to redo the basement. However it doesn't even begin to cover the hundreds of hours of labour or lost revenue. To make matters worse the government feels that my insurance company should be paying at least half of it since it was a sewer back up (despite my insurance company denying my claim because it was "flood induced sewer back up") so my grant has been cut in half.

A few grand certainly doesn't hurt but I'm not jumping in the air in excitement either. As an added bonus I get to start fighting my insurance company again which is an awfully defeating fight to be in...

Who is you insurance company?

[kevman]

The Dominion

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by kevman

Just to give some of you an idea of what some of the applicants can expect from the government I met with the disaster recovery program again last night and was able to take a peak of how much I'll be getting from the program. Trust me when I say this, I'm certainly not getting rich off of the situation. My completely redone basement suite from 2 years ago translates to:
Reimbursement of furnace repair costs and hot water tank - few grand
Drywall to 4ft. at a per foot rate - few grand
Subfloor at a square foot rate - few grand
Tools (including lawnmower etc.) at a maximum rate - few hundred

That in itself should cover most of the materials to redo the basement. However it doesn't even begin to cover the hundreds of hours of labour or lost revenue. To make matters worse the government feels that my insurance company should be paying at least half of it since it was a sewer back up (despite my insurance company denying my claim because it was "flood induced sewer back up") so my grant has been cut in half.

A few grand certainly doesn't hurt but I'm not jumping in the air in excitement either. As an added bonus I get to start fighting my insurance company again which is an awfully defeating fight to be in...

Did your new furnace and hot water heater survive the second flood?

[OldDutch]

Slava, not at all, I hope I didn't sound snappy, I am trying not to be. I only vent/discuss here, I don't bother going anywhere else because CP has always had very good people to chat with. I appreciate the questions, and don't expect people to agree with me, but I do appreciate the open mindedness.

Originally Posted by fotze

Where are you seeing this?? I haven't seen that at all, but I obviously am not in your shoes. Just curious. I certainly hope its not from Calgary Sun/Herald comments at the bottom of stories.

What is this warning sign thing? Never heard of that. Explain further.

Fotze, I will admit I have looked at the comments at both those sites. I have a thick skin, and know that is where the social rejects hang out. It wares more so on my wife, I try and tell her that these are mostly fake accounts used by trolls, who like to agitate flood victims, but it does not work. She has taken some of those comments pretty personally. I know it still gets to her, now it gets to me. She just can't understand why some people would take so much time out of their life to be so hateful to people who are so emotionally and financially devastated.

Secondly, they have slapped a warning sign on our land title "Flood Fringe". That to me is a warning sign to any future buyer. Which I am not against in theory, and would have actually liked to have myself 4 years ago.

My issue is that there are no answers as to what that means.

1. What upgrades do I need to do? Does my house go on stilts? My water tank on the main floor? Will it cost a fortune to get my house upgraded, and if so am I getting only a fraction to do this?
2. What mitigation efforts is the 3 levels of government taking? How about that antiquated sewer?
3. What assistance will happen in future if there is a worse flood? Right now it is unclear.
4. Will this allow insurance to not cover me go forward?

Now I ask, who in their right mind will pay the cities market assessed value of my home under these unknowns? No one but vultures will come. So we are stuck until what looks like the fall sitting, maybe. Maybe longer, who knows. Until then we wait I guess.

[Mazrim]

OldDutch, I'd think in your case you'd probably be okay with it taking longer but getting a definite and well defined answer to those questions, correct? I don't think anyone is claiming that there won't be any mitigation efforts made for future flooding, but maybe gut reactions on what to do to fix the problems isn't great either.

(Apologies if I misread what you were going for with your post)

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

OldDutch, I'd think in your case you'd probably be okay with it taking longer but getting a definite and well defined answer to those questions, correct? I don't think anyone is claiming that there won't be any mitigation efforts made for future flooding, but maybe gut reactions on what to do to fix the problems isn't great either.

(Apologies if I misread what you were going for with your post)

There's definitely a harm in it taking too long though; lots of people are going to be waiting to hear these answers before doing certain repairs, though. We can't put down new flooring until we know whether the government may want us to open up the concrete to install a sump pump or backflow prevention valve. We can't do anything with our walls until we know if the government is going to require us to do anything different with our foundation. We don't want to install a new boiler until we hear whether the government is going to make us move the boiler and hot water tank into a first-floor room. We can wait a few weeks on all of this info, but some of these questions we need answered before the fall, or else we'll need to take a best guess on the information available, and hope that it doesn't end up costing us double the work in the long run.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by fotze

What do you mean by that?

Sorry, lost rent from my basement suite for every month that I don't have the tenant back.

Edit: I should add I'm not complaining that the government isn't paying for my lost rental income. I'm just saying that a few grand from the government doesn't even begin to cover the costs so those of us receiving assistance are far from making money off of the situation.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

Did your new furnace and hot water heater survive the second flood?

Yup, was lucky and only took in a cm or so the second time around.

[octothorp]

City's initial response to the province's announcement.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/touch/n...tml?rel=841484

[woob]

Originally Posted by octothorp

City's initial response to the province's announcement.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/touch/n...tml?rel=841484

Non-mobile link

[macrov]

Originally Posted by Slava

^ you do realise that people pay property taxes for a lot of reasons, and being bailed out isn't high on that list (most of the time)? Its pretty hard to suggest that because someone pays taxes they can expect a bailout.

You're being a touch too close minded. Its actually really easy to suggest "bailouts" that because a significant portion of taxes you pay to the federal or provincial government are exactly for transfers. Which is what this is. Not a bailout; its a wealth transfer via natural disaster assistance.

Look at our various policies. They're all transfers. Its no different than EI, Welfare, OAS, GIC or any other government transfer. If you lose your job, you get EI. If you are old and poor, you get GIC. If you are middle class and poor, you get OAS. If you get sick, you get medical coverage. If you have kids, they get free schooling. If you want to go to university, its heavily subsidized. If your home gets hit by a natural disaster, you get disaster relief and assistance. Who pays for all these programs? Taxpayers. Who are we all? Taxpayers.

So, there is a policy in place for disaster relief. If your property is built in an area where the government has given you permission to build, you will be provided assistance in the event of natural disasters. Short of buying out property at FAIR MARKET VALUE, if the government gave you title, and you pay taxes, you should be covered. Thats the promise they made when they gave out the title. That promise is grandfathered until they buy you out. Reneging on a promise like that is not acceptable, and may even be unlawful. And the government will likely be advised by lawyers of this.

And, the homes along the elbow pay significantly more taxes than homes in the suburbs. 5x as much per year. Over a 100yr period, a river home pays 1.5mln in taxes vs 300k in the burbs. If a 1 in 100yr flood means they get a bit 2-3 years of taxes paid back to them, I honestly don't see what the big deal is. And niether will the government.

Here is what will happen: Community upgrades to flood prevention infrasturcture, buyouts of cheap real estate in high risk areas, coverage for everyone else.