Black teen shot and killed by neighborhood watch in Orlando gated community

[blankall]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Zimmerman getting millions from NBC and then the Martin family getting those millions from Zimmerman in a wrongful death suit would be closest thing to justice that would be possible at this point.

The Martin family would still have a tough time in a civil case.

This isn't like the OJ case where what was in dispute was whether or not OJ killed the guy. In that case the prosecution had to prove whether OJ killed him. The standard of proof became much easier in the civil trial.

Here, we know Zimmerman killed Martin. There's little evidence to prove what happened next. We've got a 911 call showing that Zimmerman stopped chasing Martin (he may have started again after), Zimmerman's broken nose and cuts, evidence that Martin was on top etc... In a civil case, it's still going to be one word against another. Zimmerman would have a good chance of not being found civily liable either.

In the end, only Zimmerman really knows what happened here.

[cal_guy]

A civil suit however will require Zimmerman to testify under oath so he'll have to defend his account in court. Plus a legal action of this kind of notoriety will likely attract some of Florida's best attorneys.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

A civil trial would be interesting the burden of proof is a lot less, but I believe that the defense can introduce things like past behaviors.

Have you seen the latest meme going around about Martin? Apparently the guy was a saint...

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

A civil suit however will require Zimmerman to testify under oath so he'll have to defend his account in court. Plus a legal action of this kind of notoriety will likely attract some of Florida's best attorneys.

On both sides

Both sides, Martin and Zimmerman will be dragged entirely through the mud in this case.

[cal_guy]

In Zimmerman's case he already has a stellar team.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

A civil trial would be interesting the burden of proof is a lot less, but I believe that the defense can introduce things like past behaviors.

Trayvon Martin's character would be illuminated in a way never allowed for in the criminal trial and in a way that his parents would probably be very unhappy about.

It's very unlikely there will be a civil trial anyway. http://www.buzzfeed.com/evanmcsan/ci...ttle-chance-of

Unless politically motivated like the ill-advised criminal charges were, it's very unlikely there will be federal charges too. There's nothing there to grab onto.

Cowperson

[Ducay]

Trayvon's "cause" is the facebook flavor of the month (ala monsanto, kony). Bunch of people who have zero real knowledge of the facts or legal process get hung up on buzzwords and glittery facts, repeating the same nonsense as if it is all the proof they need "He shot a black kid reaching for skittles!".

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Trayvon's "cause" is the facebook flavor of the month (ala monsanto, kony). Bunch of people who have zero real knowledge of the facts or legal process get hung up on buzzwords and glittery facts, repeating the same nonsense as if it is all the proof they need "He shot a black kid reaching for skittles!".

Omg, that is so true, and people should just shut up about things going on in the world.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Trayvon Martin's character would be illuminated in a way never allowed for in the criminal trial and in a way that his parents would probably be very unhappy about.

It's very unlikely there will be a civil trial anyway. http://www.buzzfeed.com/evanmcsan/ci...ttle-chance-of

Unless politically motivated like the ill-advised criminal charges were, it's very unlikely there will be federal charges too. There's nothing there to grab onto.

Cowperson

Care to expand on this?

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by valo403

Care to expand on this?

Yeah I'm curious on that comment as well. I can maybe see arguing it was not the most appropriate charge, but a kid died and it was at the hand of a man with a gun. Given there was only physical force and no weapon ever used by Martin, I'd be shocked at any jurisdiction not laying some sort of charge.

I'm still a strong proponent of innocent until proven guilty, but getting charged and having a fair trial is a cornerstone of our society.

[kirant]

I know I've posted on this before, but I think I can work my way around the laws present in this case. Can someone with a little more knowledge in American laws answer this for me?:
- The two conditions for manslaughter are that 1) Person A kills Person B and 2) Person A didn't commit a justified homicide or reasonable homicide (where justified and reasonable homicide are defined elsewhere)
- Part 1 is obvious. Zimmerman killed Martin. However, is the burden of proof of proving that Zimmerman had no other due course of action, since he claimed it was in self-defence, in the prosecution's hands?

If the above is required, then I understand and agree with the verdict. It's always been my assumption that a self-defence claim required burden of proof to stand.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by valo403

Care to expand on this?

The fact no charges were laid at first was part of the controversy. Alan Dershowitz has also stepped up to condemn the prosecution and claimed there should not have been any charges at all.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

The fact no charges were laid at first was part of the controversy. Alan Dershowitz has also stepped up to condemn the prosecution and claimed there should not have been any charges at all.

No charges were laid because no investigation was done, that's why there was a controversy.

[zunie75]

It's terrible that this trial was focused on race. I really believe that race had nothing to do with this incident.

The real issue should be focused on idiots who shouldn't have firearms. Zimmerman is an idiot, plain and simple.

He should have stayed in the car and waited for the police. Instead, he had his trusty gun, his confidence booster, and decide to try and play hero. And because of this, a person is dead.

It's called Neighbour hood Watch. Sit in your car and keep an eye on the kid. Wait for the police. Then go on your way.

At the very least there is negligence here. I'm a visible minority, but I'm not American, so I don't live in fear of accidentally stepping on the wrong persons lawn, and having a gun pointed at me. So for all I care, Americans can all have guns. But there has to be some caution exercised when armed.

Simple solution, gun user responsibility.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

The fact no charges were laid at first was part of the controversy. Alan Dershowitz has also stepped up to condemn the prosecution and claimed there should not have been any charges at all.

Why should we care what that racist bigot hypocrite thinks?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by zunie75

It's terrible that this trial was focused on race. I really believe that race had nothing to do with this incident.

The real issue should be focused on idiots who shouldn't have firearms. Zimmerman is an idiot, plain and simple.

He should have stayed in the car and waited for the police. Instead, he had his trusty gun, his confidence booster, and decide to try and play hero. And because of this, a person is dead.

It's called Neighbour hood Watch. Sit in your car and keep an eye on the kid. Wait for the police. Then go on your way.

At the very least there is negligence here. I'm a visible minority, but I'm not American, so I don't live in fear of accidentally stepping on the wrong persons lawn, and having a gun pointed at me. So for all I care, Americans can all have guns. But there has to be some caution exercised when armed.

Simple solution, gun user responsibility.

Do you think Zimmerman does the same thing if he sees a white kid walking through the neighborhood?

[zunie75]

Originally Posted by valo403

Do you think Zimmerman does the same thing if he sees a white kid walking through the neighborhood?

No, but what I think has nothing to do with what can be proven. I may have over stated it in my original post. I should have said that we can't prove that it was racially motivated, and so jumping to conclusion will only hurt future cases where racially motivated crime is actually a factor.

Unfortunately it seems that every case of "white" on black violence ends up looking like a race issue.

I will say this, I think Zimmerman reacts in the same way if the teen was Asian, Arab, middle eastern or a white boy with tattoos and a shaved head.

I feel it's less about race and more about general stereotyping.

Perhaps if you only knew this case as Zimmerman shoots Martin, claims self Defense. If you looked at just the fact of the case, ignored skin color, alot more people would agree with the ruling.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by valo403

No charges were laid because no investigation was done, that's why there was a controversy.

Actually, there was a full investigation completed, not sure where you read that. The police followed standard procedures, including photos, interviews, etc. and decided there was nothing to lay a charge on. The police were really peeved at the media for claiming they did not do an investigation (which was a lie).

I agree this all does seem strange, but the police got it right (as the case proved).

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Why should we care what that racist bigot hypocrite thinks?

Uhh, seriously? He teaches at Harvard, you might want to care what he says. You can choose to disagree.

Dershowitz has also spent much of his life promoting civil rights.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Actually, there was a full investigation completed, not sure where you read that. The police followed standard procedures, including photos, interviews, etc. and decided there was nothing to lay a charge on. The police were really peeved at the media for claiming they did not do an investigation (which was a lie).

I agree this all does seem strange, but the police got it right (as the case proved).

Actually, there wasn't. The full investigation took place after attention was paid to the incident and the State stepped in.