[Trade] Flames acquire Shane O'Brien and David Jones for Tanguay and Sarich

[foshizzle11]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames have been so good that Sarich couldn't earn enough ice time..???? Butler played 21 minutes a game and the coaches kept Sarich at 16.

Butler and Hannan 20 minutes and Brodie as a rookie were just too dominate for Sarich to get more than 16.

The Flames Defense was a disaster in the last full season.... Kipper had great last stand and with any reasonable Defense in front oif him would have carried the Flames into the playofs.

The Flames had maybe the worst in the league with Bouw-Butler, Gio-Hannan Brodie-Sarich and Sarich was #6 in ice time....... only because journeyman Smith was hurt.

Meanwhile on Colorado 2 pts behind Calgary in the standings and letting in 220 goals to Calgary's 226.. has SOB in at 19 minutes/game.. Behind Johnson, Hedja and Quincey.

Sarich may have been squeezed for ice time before Phanuef got traded but after that it was because he wasn't good enough to play in any NHL teams top 4.

Not saying that our defense was great but if Sarich wasn't good enough to crack the line up it is saying something.

He is old and slow and not what the flames need anymore. We need someone with more mobility with a similar skill set, who is tough to play against. Sarich just doesn't fit what the Flames are looking for.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames have been so good that Sarich couldn't earn enough ice time..???? Butler played 21 minutes a game and the coaches kept Sarich at 16.

Butler and Hannan 20 minutes and Brodie as a rookie were just too dominate for Sarich to get more than 16.

The Flames Defense was a disaster in the last full season.... Kipper had great last stand and with any reasonable Defense in front oif him would have carried the Flames into the playofs.

The Flames had maybe the worst in the league with Bouw-Butler, Gio-Hannan Brodie-Sarich and Sarich was #6 in ice time....... only because journeyman Smith was hurt.

Meanwhile on Colorado 2 pts behind Calgary in the standings and letting in 220 goals to Calgary's 226.. has SOB in at 19 minutes/game.. Behind Johnson, Hedja and Quincey.

Sarich may have been squeezed for ice time before Phanuef got traded but after that it was because he wasn't good enough to play in any NHL teams top 4.

Once again, did you even bother to look at the depth charts? No.

Whatever you think of the Flames (and no, not every year were they a disaster - last year they were) I wonder what you think of Colorado's D? Go back to the drawing board Ricardo. Got to look at the whole story, not just the little pieces that you are reaching to try and prove your points with.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Once again, did you even bother to look at the depth charts? No.

Whatever you think of the Flames (and no, not every year were they a disaster - last year they were) I wonder what you think of Colorado's D? Go back to the drawing board Ricardo. Got to look at the whole story, not just the little pieces that you are reaching to try and prove your points with.

what depth charts are you referring?

The ones based on salaries? Meaning that Bouwmeester is one of the top 10 D-men in the league?

There is no clearer statistic that shows the depth charts in all of sports than TOI. If a player plays better he moves up the depth chart and gets more TOI.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Kipper had great last stand and with any reasonable Defense in front oif him would have carried the Flames into the playoffs.

That's the silliest thing you've ever said. And considering some of your prior musing involving PIMS and seemingly randomly decalred smaller player quotas that says something.

Kipper was horrifically awful last year (one of the worst goaltenders in the league), No kind of defense (reasonable or otherwise) nor offense could have brought a team into the playoffs with him playing how he played.

[theg69]

The overrating of Sarich is ridiculous, he has been a fringe defenseman for the past few years. His skating is not where it should be and if he wasn't physical, he would not be in the league anymore. All people remember is the big hit against Marleau, but what I remember is a pylon on the ice, relegated to the press box by stalwarts such as Butler and Smith.

I feel that SOB is an upgrade overall, he is a solid bottom pairing defenseman who actually played quite well in Vancouver before he got traded (look up their depth at the time he was getting significant minutes).

If you are comparing SOB and Sarich at the same age, there is a better argument for who is better, but at this point in time, there really is not much of a comparison.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Parallex

That's the silliest thing you've ever said. And considering some of your prior musing involving PIMS and seemingly randomly decalred smaller player quotas that says something.

Kipper was horrifically awful last year (one of the worst goaltenders in the league), No kind of defense (reasonable or otherwise) nor offense could have brought a team into the playoffs with him playing how he played.

I was referring to the last full season which was clearly stated and contextually confirmed by having Hannan in the second pairing.

Last year was a write off for both Sarich and SOB.


I did not make up the quotas for small players.... but it exists... and it is not very arbitrary.... no moreso than not having more than 1 or 2 6-3 guys in the NBA and having to have a 6-10 centre and power forward.

Provide an example of a NHL playoff team that has more than 3 small forwards and 2 small d-men.


There can be some arguments as to what qualifies as small (Tanguay was average sized but played small) Hudler and Cammalleri and Baertschi and Gaudreau and Grandlund can play as hard as they can but they will always be small.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

what depth charts are you referring?

The ones based on salaries? Meaning that Bouwmeester is one of the top 10 D-men in the league?

There is no clearer statistic that shows the depth charts in all of sports than TOI. If a player plays better he moves up the depth chart and gets more TOI.

Based on salaries.. You know, I am finally starting to understand why people react to your posts the way they do. I have NEVER been a Bouwmeester apologist - go ahead and look at my posting history. He would have been Colorado's de-facto #1 last year. EJ has promise still, and I am not as down on him as I think he has the skill to improve, but Bouwmeester was much better last year. After that, it drops of substantially for Colorado.

So Ricardo - TOI is the best statistic you are telling me. Unfortunately, your argument is that of a simpleton. What was Iginla's TOI in Calgary? What was it in Pittsburgh? Why? Does the quality of the people on your team POSSIBLY effect it?

I have 3 questions for you Ricardo. I would love to get an answer for each one of them. None of these take much research at all.

True or False: The Flames had more talent in their backend than Colorado the past 3 seasons.

True or False: O'Brien played exactly the same number of games as Sarich last season (without being injured).

True or False: The quality and performance of players in the lineup ahead of you affect a player's TOI, and a crappy player on a crappy team is MORE likely to increase TOI than if he were to play on a good team.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Parallex

That's the silliest thing you've ever said. And considering some of your prior musing involving PIMS and seemingly randomly decalred smaller player quotas that says something.

Kipper was horrifically awful last year (one of the worst goaltenders in the league), No kind of defense (reasonable or otherwise) nor offense could have brought a team into the playoffs with him playing how he played.

Provide any example of of some Flame standing up for Kipper after he was knocked over coming out of his crease last year. He was happy when he just got sprayed and not actually bumped.

2004-2008 Kipper couldn't have gotten the tiny 2012-13 Flames team into the playoffs and he would have likely been injured as he would have been important enough to take out.

[TurnedTheCorner]

My expectations for Jones are for him to challenge Stempniak for ice-time and goal-scoring. I'm hoping he hits 15 goals again and brings some physicality and front of the net presence in the offensive zone.

My expectations for O'Brien are a 6/7 platooning D who can be inserted into the lineup when we want some physical presence and meanness in our zone, or we want to add another knuckle chucker in anticipation of a rough game.

Sound about right? Too low or too high for either?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

My expectations for Jones are for him to challenge Stempniak for ice-time and goal-scoring. I'm hoping he hits 15 goals again and brings some physicality and front of the net presence in the offensive zone.

My expectations for O'Brien are a 6/7 platooning D who can be inserted into the lineup when we want some physical presence and meanness in our zone, or we want to add another knuckle chucker in anticipation of a rough game.

Sound about right? Too low or too high for either?

I would agree with that.

Except that I think O'Brien will be a 5/6 more than a 6/7. I think he will be in the lineup on a regular basis

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Based on salaries.. You know, I am finally starting to understand why people react to your posts the way they do. I have NEVER been a Bouwmeester apologist - go ahead and look at my posting history. He would have been Colorado's de-facto #1 last year. EJ has promise still, and I am not as down on him as I think he has the skill to improve, but Bouwmeester was much better last year. After that, it drops of substantially for Colorado.

So Ricardo - TOI is the best statistic you are telling me. Unfortunately, your argument is that of a simpleton. What was Iginla's TOI in Calgary? What was it in Pittsburgh? Why? Does the quality of the people on your team POSSIBLY effect it?

I have 3 questions for you Ricardo. I would love to get an answer for each one of them. None of these take much research at all.

True or False: The Flames had more talent in their backend than Colorado the past 3 seasons.

True or False: O'Brien played exactly the same number of games as Sarich last season (without being injured).

True or False: The quality and performance of players in the lineup ahead of you affect a player's TOI, and a crappy player on a crappy team is MORE likely to increase TOI than if he were to play on a good team.

What does 3 years have to do with this?

In 2010-11 (2.5 seasons ago) SOB was playing 17 minutes a game for 80 games on a team that had a better defence than any team in the recent history of the Flames.... With Weber and Suter on that team team Bouwmeester would have had trouble getting 20 minutes in.

In 2011-12 The Colorado D performed every bit as good as the Flames D. Less team goals and Colorado had Varmolov in goal while the Flames had good Kipper.

In 2012-13 Both teams had crappy d and Sarich and SOB were benched from both.... SOB maybe for bad attitude and Sarich just because he wasn't good enough.

Q#3 yes quality of teammates impact your TOI. SOB played more time with better teams.

You do understand that the Flames have not made the playoffs since 2008-09.

That is a pretty clear indication that their lineups have not performed at all well. SOB has played on 2 strong playoff teams since Sarich was on a team that could qualify for the playoffs.

BUT on April 13th 2008 at 12:54 of the 1st period with the Flames losing game #3 of a tied series and down 3-0 with Kipper pulled after letting in 3 goals on 5 shots Sarich levelled Marleau and the Flames led by backup goalie Joesph rallied to beat SJ 4-3

In that series 5 years ago Sarich played well enough to be the #4 defenseman on the Flames.... edging out Ericcson and Aucion by a minute a game.


SOB has not done that,

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

What does 3 years have to do with this?

In 2010-11 (2.5 seasons ago) SOB was playing 17 minutes a game for 80 games on a team that had a better defence than any team in the recent history of the Flames.... With Weber and Suter on that team team Bouwmeester would have had trouble getting 20 minutes in.

In 2011-12 The Colorado D performed every bit as good as the Flames D. Less team goals and Colorado had Varmolov in goal while the Flames had good Kipper.

In 2012-13 Both teams had crappy d and Sarich and SOB were benched from both.... SOB maybe for bad attitude and Sarich just because he wasn't good enough.

Q#3 yes quality of teammates impact your TOI. SOB played more time with better teams.

You do understand that the Flames have not made the playoffs since 2008-09.

That is a pretty clear indication that their lineups have not performed at all well. SOB has played on 2 strong playoff teams since Sarich was on a team that could qualify for the playoffs.

BUT on April 13th 2008 at 12:54 of the 1st period with the Flames losing game #3 of a tied series and down 3-0 with Kipper pulled after letting in 3 goals on 5 shots Sarich levelled Marleau and the Flames led by backup goalie Joesph rallied to beat SJ 4-3

In that series 5 years ago Sarich played well enough to be the #4 defenseman on the Flames.... edging out Ericcson and Aucion by a minute a game.


SOB has not done that,

You didn't really answer my 3 simple questions Anyways...

2.5 seasons ago? What are we, in the middle of a season right now? THREE seasons ago O'Brien played on Nashville - and they had a pretty good lineup on D. Surprised he played that much, but good for him. However, what you fail to disclose is that it was also the same year they lost Hamuis, lost Suter for 12 games, played such stars as Lakso, Belak, Jonathan Blum who was a rookie that year, Sulzer, Boullion who only played 44 games, 2nd year Franson, and 2nd year Klein. Seems that d-corps was suffering from some depth issues that season, no? Think it played a factor in how much time he ended up playing? See what I mean by how you need to look at the entire situation, not just cherry-pick stats?

2011-12
Do you want to take another look at the depth chart on Colorado's team, and look at GP by defencemen that year? O'Brien performed fine apparently - fans weren't on Colorado to trade him, but this was the defence depth list with GP:

Tyson Barrie - 10
Matt Hunwick - 33
Ryan O'Byrne - 74
Stefan Elliot - 39
Ryan Wilson - 59
Kyle Quincey - 54
Erik Johnson - 73

O'Brien played 76

You are telling me the list above was comparable to the Flames D that year? Really? They were DEVASTATED by injuries by the looks of it, and supported by some tweeners. Flames may have allowed more goals against (didn't bother confirming it), but it was NOT because of talent.

Now look what happens in the next season (2012-13) when Colorado stays a bit healthy - when O'Brien suddenly finds himself as a healthy scratch playing 28 games (the same as Sarich):

Johnson, Hunwick, Zanon, Hejda, O'Byrne (34 games until he got traded) and Barrie all played more games than O'Brien. So was O'Brien's numbers from 2011-12 a product of him moving up the depth charts, or was it a product of having a devastated d-core?

You do understand that Colorado finished second last in the entire league? To throw out the "Colorado allowed less goals", "Good Kipper vs Varlamov", etc., is so misleading and disingenuous. Systems play is a huge factor to consider. I can also go back over the years and show you how Flames flip-flopped from 'stingy' to 'generous' in their GA department. Doesn't prove that they didn't have enough talent, or that the talent was super - just that they played a loose defensive system or a tighter defensive system. Anyone that watches the Flames knows that.

You are cherry-picking stats Ricardo to try and prove your point, without factoring in WHY those stats appear the way they do. You keep pointing at TOI and saying: "O'Brien has played more", though ignoring not only the quality of the depth on both teams, but also the games missed from injury from the players ranked ahead.

Sarich is a regressing defencemen in the very twilight of his career. The only real 'loss' the Flames will feel will be about his mentoring/leadership abilities. However, let's not talk like O'Brien is a clear upgrade - when you REALLY look at the details, O'Brien has NEVER been much more than a depth defencemen who has been forced to play in the top 4 due to injuries/depth issues on his team. He is no 'enforcer' either. He is simply a depth defencemen who will get a crack at playing top 4 on the Flames, but who you will probably see as a 6th/7th defencemen (like Cory was). On the ice - it will MAYBE be a wash. In the locker room, it is probably a loss. Hopefully he steps up this season and doesn't make the bone-headed and costly mistakes that Avs fans have been frustrated about.

When I actually have time, maybe a better comparison using complete advanced stats will help (don't know either way for sure, but doubt either one has great stats at this point) to see what you can expect positively and negatively between the two, including HOW they were used - special teams, zone starts, QoC, CORSI, etc.,. They are both sheltered defencemen who have been healthy scratches on their respective squads - difference is Sarich was one with a much deeper team in front of him, and O'Brien is younger (though NOT young!).

[theg69]

You guys can agree to disagree: from my standpoint you both are cherry-picking stats to further you own arguments. I can't believe how much debate this has caused.

At this point, we will just have to see how the season unfolds to see who got the better end of the deal.

Although he frustrated me some nights as a player, Cory Sarich is a class act all the way. I wish nothing but the best for him.

Cory Sarich ‏@sarchy06 4m
Thanks to all who cheered me on in the Flames uni. I love our city and I'msure it will be our home again when the dust settles.

[rayne008]

Couple of Tweets from Cory Sarich..
-------
Cory Sarich ‏@sarchy06 12m
Thanks to all who cheered me on in the Flames uni. I love our city and I'msure it will be our home again when the dust settles.

Cory Sarich ‏@sarchy06 11m
I wish the team well and a speedy recovery from the flood waters. Thanks to all of the staff and teammates that made the experience great.

[davidbjordan]

I'll miss sarich's hits on patrick marleau... class act that guy

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by rayne008

Couple of Tweets from Cory Sarich..
-------
Cory Sarich ‏@sarchy06 12m
Thanks to all who cheered me on in the Flames uni. I love our city and I'msure it will be our home again when the dust settles.

Cory Sarich ‏@sarchy06 11m
I wish the team well and a speedy recovery from the flood waters. Thanks to all of the staff and teammates that made the experience great.

The guy was in Calgary at Stampede when Sutter signed him the first time around. He wasn't that good with puck on his stick but I liked having him on our blue line. That Marleau hit brought me out of my seat.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by rayne008

Couple of Tweets from Cory Sarich..
-------
Cory Sarich ‏@sarchy06 12m
Thanks to all who cheered me on in the Flames uni. I love our city and I'msure it will be our home again when the dust settles.

Cory Sarich ‏@sarchy06 11m
I wish the team well and a speedy recovery from the flood waters. Thanks to all of the staff and teammates that made the experience great.

I always liked Sarich. He always seemed to make whichever young guy he was partnered with better. Obviously he is a great "community" oriented person and always said to be a very positive influence in the room.

Its too bad we couldn't keep him on for the rebuild.

I could see him as the kind of player to transition to a coaching role down the road.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by theg69

You guys can agree to disagree: from my standpoint you both are cherry-picking stats to further you own arguments. I can't believe how much debate this has caused.

At this point, we will just have to see how the season unfolds to see who got the better end of the deal.

Although he frustrated me some nights as a player, Cory Sarich is a class act all the way. I wish nothing but the best for him.

Cory Sarich ‏@sarchy06 4m
Thanks to all who cheered me on in the Flames uni. I love our city and I'msure it will be our home again when the dust settles.

Actually, that is my original point - that the poster I was referring to was cherry-picking. Please enlighten me on what stats I was cherry picking. The only reason I responded is because it is a pet peeve of mine when people use incomplete data - especially cherry picking stats. I may be wrong, but I should hope I never cherry pick - and I hope I get called out on it if I ever do as I can't stand a hypocrite either

[FAN]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

SOB has somehow been played significantly more than Sarich over the last 6 years.

SOB is certainly the more talented defensemen, but it depends on what the team needs. If you're looking for a guy who has the ability to step into the top 4 SOB is better. If you're looking for a stable partner for a young defensemen, Sarich is better. The clincher for me is locker room presence. Sarich is a veteran leader with a Cup ring. SOB comes with the reputation of being a partier. Not saying SOB is a locker room cancer. He is likely a good teammate. But he might not be the best influence as far as how he approaches his off-ice workouts and life in general.