[News] Red Wings Plan new $650 Million Arena

[T@T]

Originally Posted by mac_82

Not gonna lie, I'm a bit sad. Joe Louis is my favourite NHL rink that I've been to that is still in use. But it had to happen some time.

The Joe Louis is a hole

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

If $387 million is coming from the owner, wouldn't that more or less pay for the arena itself, with the public money being used for the rest of the project?

Sounds okay to me. Detroit isn't going to get out of their slump unless they invest some money into getting people to come there and invest.

Is the hockey rink and shopping mall going to get people to come there and invest?

I honestly don't know, but my guess is "no". Would you move to Detroit and invest there because it had a new hockey rink?

That town is a disaster. The last thing they should be doing is giving a billionaire 300 million bucks. Or 600 million. Or whatever the real number is when all is said and done.

They can't even fund the fire department properly. Or the police force. Or anything. People aren't going to invest big (or small) dollars anytime soon, or ever, if they can't deal with the basics.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Owner of the Wings also owns Little Caesars, so I think its likely.

I'm aware, but selling entire greasy pizza's to put on your lap and spill all over the place isn't exactly something you associate with shiny new buildings.

[SebC]

Detroit may be "broke", but they still need to spend money to improve their situation. Whether or not an arena accomplishes that is highly debatable though.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Is the hockey rink and shopping mall going to get people to come there and invest?

I honestly don't know, but my guess is "no". Would you move to Detroit and invest there because it had a new hockey rink?

That town is a disaster. The last thing they should be doing is giving a billionaire 300 million bucks. Or 600 million. Or whatever the real number is when all is said and done.

They can't even fund the fire department properly. Or the police force. Or anything. People aren't going to invest big (or small) dollars anytime soon, or ever, if they can't deal with the basics.

It's going to get more people to come there and "invest" than the alternative, which is letting the city die. There is one small active business district in downtown Detroit, this will add significantly to that area and expand the geographic scope of it. It will also expand the entertainment area of downtown as the Joe is removed from the area around Comerica and Ford Field where the majority of restaurants, bars and businesses are located.

You could go ahead and give the $200mil to the fire department or police department instead of creating a new business district and revamping parts that already exist, but in doing so you've given up on the city. There's no return from that investment, there's no business generation, there's money out and nothing back. There's no point in funding a fire department for a city that no longer exists. These are dollars marked for stimulating development and putting Detroit in a position to actually generate revenue and build itself back up. People need to remember that this isn't a case of shifting dollars from one pocket to another, most of the people going to games at the Joe wouldn't spend a dollar in the city of Detroit if not for sports, they'd be out in Oakland county. There's very little to draw people or business to Detroit, projects like this change that on both fronts.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by valo403

It's going to get more people to come there and "invest" than the alternative, which is letting the city die. There is one small active business district in downtown Detroit, this will add significantly to that area and expand the geographic scope of it. It will also expand the entertainment area of downtown as the Joe is removed from the area around Comerica and Ford Field where the majority of restaurants, bars and businesses are located.

You could go ahead and give the $200mil to the fire department or police department instead of creating a new business district and revamping parts that already exist, but in doing so you've given up on the city. There's no return from that investment, there's no business generation, there's money out and nothing back. There's no point in funding a fire department for a city that no longer exists. These are dollars marked for stimulating development and putting Detroit in a position to actually generate revenue and build itself back up. People need to remember that this isn't a case of shifting dollars from one pocket to another, most of the people going to games at the Joe wouldn't spend a dollar in the city of Detroit if not for sports, they'd be out in Oakland county. There's very little to draw people or business to Detroit, projects like this change that on both fronts.

Doesn't it kind of go both ways? You know, if the arena catches on fire and there isn't a fire department there to put it out, what happens to this big investment?

All I'm saying is that if you can't pay for the basics (that all come long before sports teams), you're kinda hooped. You need a fire department, a police force, a school system, and flushing toilets. You don't need a hockey team. The Red Wings haven't been there forever.

And if the theory is a new hockey rink will "save the city", well, sayonora Detroit. It was nice knowing you, because the hockey rink isn't going to do it.

I'm all for fancy new arenas and bringing people into the city. Why can't Illitch pay for it? Is he going to move the team to Kansas City?

[Nsd1]

Illitch could build the arena with 100% private funds, but why would be want to spend more to build the residential and commercial spaces. The city is receiving a benefit from this too. This will create new businesses, more jobs, better housing and more attraction to the area. We know who's pitching in how much but we don't know where that money's going. Illitchs money could be solely for the arena and the other just for the rest of the complex.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm all for fancy new arenas and bringing people into the city. Why can't Illitch pay for it? Is he going to move the team to Kansas City?

While he wouldn't move the team to Kansas City, he could just as well build a new arena in Oakland County. He's putting up $367m of private investment capital, according to the TSN story. Getting him to spend that in Detroit proper and not in the suburbs is worth something to the city.

[saskflames69]

I'll be damned if they don't call it the "Little Caesars' Palace"

[TurnedTheCorner]

I'm sure the Flames building is much further along and will wow us when we see it.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

While he wouldn't move the team to Kansas City, he could just as well build a new arena in Oakland County. He's putting up $367m of private investment capital, according to the TSN story. Getting him to spend that in Detroit proper and not in the suburbs is worth something to the city.

Then he can build it in Oakland County and pay for it himself. Why not? If that's better for him then do it man, and the city can keep its 300 million dollars (which of course will be about half the price they end up really paying) for other, more important things.


The idea here seems to be ass-backwards. "Don't invest in improving the city, give the money to a billionaire, and hopefully things will get better after we pay for his hockey rink".

That's not how the city (or any city) started.

I don't claim to be any expert on Detroit. I've never even been there. But a couple minutes on google tells me the taxpayers have, in the last decade+, paid for a football stadium and a ball park. The hockey rink will apparently be nearby.

What kind of turnaround have the other sports facilities spurred in the area? Are things on the up-and-up? Is Detroit on its way back?

If not, maybe the money could be put to better use in education, or some other vital service, and Illitch can pay for his own hockey rink and put it wherever he wants and hope people still come.

[GGG]

Who owns the real Estate and other properties when they are done? What is the tax structure of the deal?

I like what was done in the East Village. The city did the necessary upgrades to the area to make it suitable for developers. Essentially subsidizing private development in the East Village. To fund it they borrowed against the tax difference between the improved land and the current value.

If detroit did this kind of arrangement to fund the 283 million or if Calgary does in the future I can support it. If this is just a 283 million dollar gift and Illich gets to run and profit from the shopping mall and offices and residences ala the Brooklyn arena deal then I think it is a poor investment for the city.

[korzym12]

Originally Posted by valo403

First of all, Detroit has not declared bankruptcy so I'm not sure where you've come up with that idea. Second, the public funds are not derived from Detroit's general fund, they are coming from existing tax captures and already allocated economic development funds.

Detroit is desperately in need of development that will bring people and businesses to the city, not just for the night, but on a permanent basis. This project is bringing a ton of professional and residential space along with it, and will act as another anchor for the downtown area.

Wow - don't "first of all" me, of all things!

They can't pay the interest on their debt. They're negotiating with lenders for them to forgive 90% of their loans - rather than file for bankruptcy. It's a last ditch effort to avoid filing bankruptcy.
If you want to get bogged down in technicals - they didn't declare bankruptcy - however they will file for bankruptcy undoubtedly - should their lenders refuse Orr's offer to pay back only 10%.

Also, government doesn't have to "build stuff" to revitalize neighborhoods. They need to use their cheap living expenses to attract businesses to Detroit to create jobs. If the arena is going to attract customers - then there will be a line up of private companies willing to spend their own money to revitalize the neighborhood. 60% of buildings in Detroit have been abandoned. Spending money on a few blocks will only push them further into debt. They need to spend their money on police, schools, and their debt. Anything else is out of the question.

Very troubling how gullible people are to believe that government has to build things to get the economy going, this is main stream media propaganda at its finest. Regulations need to be removed so there are cost advantages for businesses in Detroit vs. other cities and countries.

[korzym12]

Originally Posted by valo403

It's going to get more people to come there and "invest" than the alternative, which is letting the city die. There is one small active business district in downtown Detroit, this will add significantly to that area and expand the geographic scope of it. It will also expand the entertainment area of downtown as the Joe is removed from the area around Comerica and Ford Field where the majority of restaurants, bars and businesses are located.

You could go ahead and give the $200mil to the fire department or police department instead of creating a new business district and revamping parts that already exist, but in doing so you've given up on the city. There's no return from that investment, there's no business generation, there's money out and nothing back. There's no point in funding a fire department for a city that no longer exists. These are dollars marked for stimulating development and putting Detroit in a position to actually generate revenue and build itself back up. People need to remember that this isn't a case of shifting dollars from one pocket to another, most of the people going to games at the Joe wouldn't spend a dollar in the city of Detroit if not for sports, they'd be out in Oakland county. There's very little to draw people or business to Detroit, projects like this change that on both fronts.

Private businesses are the most efficient allocators of capital - this has been shown to be true time and time again.

You're proposing that the solution to Detroit's debt problem, is to take on more debt. That's unequivocally wrong. Get rid of regulations and let companies come in and have cost advantages. Whenever there's a regulation, a company has to spend money to comply with the regulation - this is a cost of compliance. Or in Obamacare's case - employers refuse to hire workers to meet the minimum cut off to participate in that program.
It's free to eliminate regulations.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by korzym12

Very troubling how gullible people are to believe that government has to build things to get the economy going, this is main stream media propaganda at its finest. Regulations need to be removed so there are cost advantages for businesses in Detroit vs. other cities and countries.

Nobody wants to live in a craphole, no matter how cheap it is.

[chalms04]

Originally Posted by saskflames69

I'll be damned if they don't call it the "Little Caesars' Palace"

But will it be pager friendly?

[CalgaryFan1988]

With the way the real estate is in Detroit right now, after its built it will be valued at about 3 million.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Then he can build it in Oakland County and pay for it himself. Why not? If that's better for him then do it man, and the city can keep its 300 million dollars (which of course will be about half the price they end up really paying) for other, more important things.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, the City of Detroit doesn't. The trouble seems to be that the money is coming from — let's be honest — a special slush fund provided mostly by the state of Michigan. The city can't spend that money on essential services, but it can spend it on fribbles like an arena. Add in the fact that most municipal politicians suffer from an edifice complex, and you have a perfect recipe for a tax-funded boondoggle.

If I were calling the shots for the city, I'd be willing to sell Illitch all the land he needs for $1, and give him a permanent property-tax exemption on the arena itself (not on any adjoining housing or commercial facilities) — but no actual cash. Land in Detroit is a drug on the market, and the tax revenue would be zero if the arena wasn't built. That way the city doesn't end up out of pocket, except for the day-to-day costs of municipal services. That's a bet worth making. Putting in $300m in public money just, well, isn't.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Doesn't it kind of go both ways? You know, if the arena catches on fire and there isn't a fire department there to put it out, what happens to this big investment?

All I'm saying is that if you can't pay for the basics (that all come long before sports teams), you're kinda hooped. You need a fire department, a police force, a school system, and flushing toilets. You don't need a hockey team. The Red Wings haven't been there forever.

And if the theory is a new hockey rink will "save the city", well, sayonora Detroit. It was nice knowing you, because the hockey rink isn't going to do it.

I'm all for fancy new arenas and bringing people into the city. Why can't Illitch pay for it? Is he going to move the team to Kansas City?

You've made the mistake of pretending that this project is only a hockey rink. The funds contributed privately could likely pay for a hockey rink on their own. This is, on its face at least, a pretty great example of how a public private partnership can benefit both parties.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Then he can build it in Oakland County and pay for it himself. Why not? If that's better for him then do it man, and the city can keep its 300 million dollars (which of course will be about half the price they end up really paying) for other, more important things.


The idea here seems to be ass-backwards. "Don't invest in improving the city, give the money to a billionaire, and hopefully things will get better after we pay for his hockey rink".

That's not how the city (or any city) started.

I don't claim to be any expert on Detroit. I've never even been there. But a couple minutes on google tells me the taxpayers have, in the last decade+, paid for a football stadium and a ball park. The hockey rink will apparently be nearby.

What kind of turnaround have the other sports facilities spurred in the area? Are things on the up-and-up? Is Detroit on its way back?

If not, maybe the money could be put to better use in education, or some other vital service, and Illitch can pay for his own hockey rink and put it wherever he wants and hope people still come.

What number is bigger, 6 or 2? Would you rather have 6 million invested in your city or 2? Without the additional government involvement that extra 4 is going to Oakland county, and it never coming back, just like everything else tht has left Detroit. If that city wants to exist in a decade it needs to provide a reason for people to be there. This is providing a reason to visit and a reason to stay in the form of office and residential space.

Btw, the only area of Detroit that anyone from the surrounding counties visits is the stadium area. It is literally the only reason that almost everyone I know ever goes into downtown Detroit. It has kept the area alive more than anything else.