News from the Draft combine

[Azure]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The VO2 max test is by far the most important ---It shows how fit a player is and by extrapolation how hard he is willing to work. Sven Baertschi won this test in his combine.

Monahan did well in this.

Barkov and Nichushkin did not show up in the top of any categories other than Nichuskin's wing span. Lindholm was strong in the Push and pull strength. you would expect that these guys would be stronger as they were playing against Men.

And if you expect someone to be able to make the NHL right after their draft year, their strength levels have to be much higher than those guys that get drafted with the expectation that it will take a year or so to develop them into NHL players.

I find it hilarious that people think your fitness level isn't a big deal here. There is a reason the NHL does this, a reason individual teams do this with certain prospects, and a reason all NHL players are subject to fitness testing in spring training.

Maybe we should ask Joe Defranco, who is a world renowned trainer if amazing fitness levels can affect draft ranking.

DeFranco is a pro-maker, a gun for hire used by athletes seeking an edge on the competition. DeFranco's coaching techniques have brought seventh round draft picks up to the third round, and third round pics up to the first. Thirty-one of his athletes have been drafted into the NFL.

He also makes a rather interesting point about NFL combine testing. NHL has the same principal.

JD: You’re absolutely right. The tests are poorly designed. I'd still love to know who the hell came up with these tests anyway. I mean, how often does a football player get in a track stance and run 40 yards in a straight line? And I find it hysterical these scouts think that the "agility" drills can predict a player’s game speed. They fail to realize that true "game speed" and "agility" is an athlete’s ability to react to a visual stimulus in a split second. Making predetermined cuts around cones that aren’t moving is a lot easier than a running back trying to juke a linebacker in order to score a touchdown.

And let’s not forget about the 225-pound bench press test. First of all, it’s not even a strength test! It’s a strength-endurance test. I'd much rather see a one to three rep max in the bench press or incline press. I also think a medicine ball chest pass for distance would be more appropriate.

The harsh reality of these tests is, whether they’re bull#### or not, they're still a prerequisite for a lot of football players to get drafted or get into an NFL camp. Many players, especially guys from small schools, must dominate these tests in order to get the opportunity to even step on the field and prove they can play. It’s sad, but true!

That’s why I do what I do. Hey, if these scouts are going to make these kids perform the Combine tests, then the kids should practice to get good at them. That’s where I come in. I prepare college football players to get past the first part of their evaluation (the NFL Combine or their Pro Day). Doing well at their Combine or Pro Day then opens up doors for them to show what they can do on the football field. That’s the bottom line.

http://www.defrancostraining.com/art...-defranco.html

[moon]

It certainly can help a draft ranking but that is because there will always be dumb teams who are involved in the draft.

The NHL combine isn't that old but looking at combine "freaks" from the NHL and NFL most guys who did shoot up in what appeared to be in large part because of the workouts have been mainly busts.

Sure it is great to have strength in the workout room but that is useless as all hell if the performance on the ice isn't there.

[Azure]

Nobody is saying that performance on the ice isn't extremely important. I'm just saying that there is a damn good reason the physical fitness tests are done, and it absolutely can push a team to draft one player over another.

Which is why it is so mind-boggling to me that the freakin' pushup average is so low. Honestly, if you're in half decent physical shape, spend 30 days working on pushups, and you'll easily be able to crank out 50. Doing them in timing isn't that much harder, if you train for it.

[moon]

Again I agree that it can push a team to draft one player over another but it certainly shouldn't and the results are there when you look at the guys who are workout warriors and shoot up the charts. Their record of translating to the ice is not very good and usually on par with what they showed on the ice and not in the weight room.

As for the push-up thing. I have no knowledge of working out or push-ups but considering these are some of the top athletes in the world for their age group and have some well paid training people working with them during their junior careers and once they are done I have to doubt that it is easy to crank out 50 when nobody has ever done (as far as I have heard.) I am not sure if they don't waste time training for it since there are obviously much more important things to work on or if your easily get 50 theory is crazy but it does seem doubtful that it is that easy or someone would have done it before.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Azure

Nobody is saying that performance on the ice isn't extremely important. I'm just saying that there is a damn good reason the physical fitness tests are done, and it absolutely can push a team to draft one player over another.

Which is why it is so mind-boggling to me that the freakin' pushup average is so low. Honestly, if you're in half decent physical shape, spend 30 days working on pushups, and you'll easily be able to crank out 50. Doing them in timing isn't that much harder, if you train for it.

you are making more of the tests than they are. every scout, gm and even doctor they talked to during the combine said the same thing, that the testing doesn't change much but it can find health issues that sometimes the player didn't even know about.

Also don't be so smug about the push-ups, it's not as easy as you make them out to be; hands have to be should width apart, there is a roll of duct tape under their chest they can't touch and they have to go at an exact pace. Not nearly as easy as you make it out to be.

[nightfx]

Push up numbers do seem low but so are bench press numbers, doesn't seem like prospects prioritize their chest strength.

[ricardodw]

well if these count for anything Mirco Mueller will be picked higher than the 9th place N/A skater that central scouting has him.

He won the VO2 the same as his Swiss country-man Baertshi, He ranks among the strongest in grip and upper body strength and is 6-3 but only 176.

He has been place somewhere around #20 to 2nd round in Mock drafts

[Azure]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

well if these count for anything Mirco Mueller will be picked higher than the 9th place N/A skater that central scouting has him.

He won the VO2 the same as his Swiss country-man Baertshi, He ranks among the strongest in grip and upper body strength and is 6-3 but only 176.

He has been place somewhere around #20 to 2nd round in Mock drafts

I guess it remains to be seen. Obviously he won't go top 5, but it could move him a couple spots.

[mdubz]

Originally Posted by nightfx

Push up numbers do seem low but so are bench press numbers, doesn't seem like prospects prioritize their chest strength.

Shoulder-width push ups use your triceps, not much chest at all.

[Stampede2TheCup]

Most teams almost surely know full well some tests are much more useful than others and that some tests won't show things that can't be seen on the ice. A workhorse playing 25+ minutes in the CHL scoring well in the V02 max shouldn't really be surprising whereas a guy with far less ice time doing well in the test probably shows a commitment to fitness. A guy doing well in the pushup test to me mostly shows he's trained specifically for the test but I don't think it's a particularly useful thing to train to help on-ice performance.

Teams may be a bit more attracted to guys that score well in the physical testing overall because it shows they're committed to the off-ice work needed to be a pro and in some cases better natural abilities. On the flipside though, doing well in fitness testing could even occasionally be seen as a slight negative if you think a guy is older and/or more physically developed and currently dominating lesser competition just from being a bit of an early bloomer without the skill and physical improvement to step up as much as others.

[nightfx]

Originally Posted by mdubz

Shoulder-width push ups use your triceps, not much chest at all.

Not much chest at all...?

Yes it does emphasize triceps strength a bit more if you have narrow shoulders but push ups are a compound movement and having a strong chest does help a lot if you're doing full ROM.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Azure

Sorry but with a month of practice I could easily do more than 50.

Well, the top player at the combine could only muster 42,consider yourself world class.

Originally Posted by Azure

I honestly don't understand the 'strength' part of the fitness testing at the NHL combine.

Plus, after looking at the players being tested, holy crap are some of them skinny. Seth Jones looks like the skinny 16 year teenager in high school that everyone picked on.

I don't understand why it is so hard for them to be a lot stronger and bigger by the time they turn 18. Put some weight on the squat rack and get squatting. There is no rocket science behind bulking up.

Let me try to explain this non rocket science to you, these kids are on the ice about 320 days a year trying to become a millionaire playing hockey, bulking up as a teanager isn't easy to begin with let alone trying to do it while training to be a world class hockey player.

Ummm, sorry coach, no practice for me today because my legs are tired from doing heavy squats!

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Azure

Nobody is saying that performance on the ice isn't extremely important. I'm just saying that there is a damn good reason the physical fitness tests are done, and it absolutely can push a team to draft one player over another.

Which is why it is so mind-boggling to me that the freakin' pushup average is so low. Honestly, if you're in half decent physical shape, spend 30 days working on pushups, and you'll easily be able to crank out 50. Doing them in timing isn't that much harder, if you train for it.

Well, at least you're not coming off as a smug, fitness freak.

[bucksmasher]

Originally Posted by nightfx

Push up numbers do seem low but so are bench press numbers, doesn't seem like prospects prioritize their chest strength.

I believe this is true since they are both press/push ex. Just finished a KNSS class a few months ago and sounds like contact sports athletes are trending in the direction of core and leg strength to take and deliver forceful hits. eg. a linebacker with a higher percentile squat 1 rep max than press 1 rep max is theoretically better conditioned for contact than the opposite situation.

It makes sense to me that a stronger core and lower body would be essential than big pipes and chest but maybe the combine designed around a more traditional system.

[bucksmasher]

Originally Posted by T@T

Well, the top player at the combine could only muster 42,consider yourself world class.

that's what I thought, I maxed out at 30 but I'm no spring chicken.

[PlayfulGenius]

Originally Posted by T@T

Well, the top player at the combine could only muster 42,consider yourself world class.



Let me try to explain this non rocket science to you, these kids are on the ice about 320 days a year trying to become a millionaire playing hockey, bulking up as a teanager isn't easy to begin with let alone trying to do it while training to be a world class hockey player.

Ummm, sorry coach, no practice for me today because my legs are tired from doing heavy squats!

Plus, these are kids ... Seth Jones is big, but with his shirt off, he's clearly still a boy... If he does these strength tests 2 years from now, the results will be very different.

I still wrestle a fair amount as a 37 year old, and I only weigh 150 lbs... 17 and 18 year old kids can have every advantage (flexibility, size, quickness, etc) but its extremely rare that strength is one of them... and I'm not suggesting I'm a strong guy at all, just an adult.

This makes me wonder what teams make of these tests. To me, it speaks to Jones' potential that he is still boyish, whereby Mackinnon is already very well developed physically.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by bucksmasher

It makes sense to me that a stronger core and lower body would be essential than big pipes and chest but maybe the combine designed around a more traditional system.

Squats for example are much more important than bench press or any upper body workout. The core is the foundation of an athlete. His first few strides, putting weight into shots, skating through interference, and laying big hits, etc are all improved as an athlete increases his core strength.

Martin St.Louis and Crosby for example don't have huge upper bodies but their legs and glutes are massive for their size and it's how they have been able to excel playing against bigger men. Upper body helps as well but more as a supplement to core strength. The biggest mistake you see with kids (guilty myself when young) is a big chest, arms and chicken legs as young guys tend to flock to bench and arm curls as it gives an appearance of strength even though a smaller upper body and stronger core will almost always yield the more powerful man.

[Enoch Root]

Lots of good points in this thread.

I don't think these tests will affect draft position much but what they illustrate is where some of them are development-wise and what they can improve upon. Also, it can be one small indication of their work ethic.

As Azure mentioned, they can be very useful if you're wondering if a particular kid might be able to play in the NHL next year. However, I don't agree with comparing to the NFL - very different game where teams draft athletes and then teach them to play. If a guy is 6'9" and runs a 4.4 40, you can teach him how to be a defensive lineman. Simply can't happen in hockey.

Another useful application is following how your prospect is improving over time. I am not going to decide between Lindholm and Monahan based on combine tests. However, once I choose my guy (Monahan), I am going to use his combine tests to a) develop a summer regiment for him, and b) to see how he has improved over the summer, come September (and again next September)

[hesh329]

I think one thing that all these teams are looking at is the jump scores. If a player has fast twitch muscles this is where it will show up. You just cannot teach a person to be a fast twitch athlete, from a physical stand point if this player is a hard worker they will have a higher ceiling The other score such as bench press vo2 max and push ups will be helpful for seeing who pushes the hardest, but they can be developed with a solid workout plan. But if it is me and i have a choice at the top of the draft i will take the more explosive guy if all skills are equal.

[T@T]

Some player stats starting to be leaked:

Barkov: Height 74.5 inches, Wing span 76 inches, Weight 207.5 lbs, % Body Fat 11.8, Hand-eye 35.9 seconds, Upper body development A, Lower body development A

Monahan: Height 74.5 inches, Wing span 72 inches, Weight 188 lbs, % body fat 9.6, Hand-eye 31 seconds, Upper body development A, Lower body development A

Nichushkin: Height 76 inches, Wing span 78.5 inches, Weight 205 lbs, % Body Fat 10.3, Hand-eye 39.2 seconds, Upper body development A, Lower body development A

MacKinnon: Height 72.5 inches, Wing span 74.5 inches, 190.3 lbs, % Body fat 7.6, Hand-eye 40.9 seconds, Upper body development AA, Lower body development A

Domi: Height 69.5 inches, Wing span 70.5, Weight 190.7 lbs, % Body fat 8.8, Hand-eye 35.9 seconds, Upper body development A, Lower body development A

Horvat: Height 72.5 inches, Wing span 75.5 inches, Weight 211 lbs, % Body fat 10.7, Hand-eye 30.8 seconds, Upper body development AA, Lower body development A

Shinkaruk: Height 70.5 inches, Wing span 74 inches, Weight 172.5 lbs, % Body fat 9.5, Hand-eye 36.5, Upper body development BA, Lower body development BA

Lazar: Height 72 inches, Wing span 74.5 inches, Weight 191.2 lbs, % body fat 9.6, Hand-eye 29.1, Upper body development A, Lower body development A



E=Extensive, AA=Above Average, A=Average, BA=Below Average

Hand-eye - lower = better