General Ongoing Coyotes saga thread

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by troutman

I don't think this is all Gary's idea. I think LA, ANA, SJ and DAL, really want to have a team in PHO.

I don't see Dallas caring, they just wanted out of that division. I guess for the California teams Phoenix is convenient but they'd get over it. I don't like the idea of propping up a team with no viable future. If the California teams want the Coyotes, they should be the ones who pay the shortfalls.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I don't see Dallas caring, they just wanted out of that division. I guess for the California teams Phoenix is convenient but they'd get over it. I don't like the idea of propping up a team with no viable future. If the California teams want the Coyotes, they should be the ones who pay the shortfalls.

Umm, they are, along with the rest of the teams in the league. May I remind you that if this tactic was so unwelcome among the teams it would not be happening. I suppose your continued view that the NHL is some sort of fiefdom makes this hard for you to understand.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by valo403

Umm, they are, along with the rest of the teams in the league. May I remind you that if this tactic was so unwelcome among the teams it would not be happening. I suppose your continued view that the NHL is some sort of fiefdom makes this hard for you to understand.

Okay, you tell me why the rest of the league finds it beneficial to lose money in Phoenix?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Okay, you tell me why the rest of the league finds it beneficial to lose money in Phoenix?

I don't know, I've yet to be invited to any NHL meetings. Evidently they have decided this is the best course of action, and as shocking as this may be for you to hear, they are actually privy to a little bit more information than you or I.

[troutman]

Despite Forbes report, Coyotes sale moves ahead
http://www.foxsportsarizona.com/nhl/...67&feedID=3702

While the Forbes figures may not be entirely accurate – multiple sources indicated that they are a reflection of how the deal looked a couple of months ago rather than how it looks at present – they are not far off.

But this should not come as a shock to anyone who has followed this story closely. It’s long been expected that the league would finance a good portion of this deal and give the new owners time to establish some momentum because, again, this franchise has a troubled past.

But the key players in this deal, including the City of Glendale and the NHL’s Board of Governors, all had a good sense of the structure of this deal before it became public, multiple sources have confirmed.

Those same sources said that, despite rumors to the contrary, this deal is similar to the ones Greg Jamison and Matthew Hulsizer were pursuing – with the main exceptions being that in the Hulsizer deal, the city was going to sell bonds to help finance the deal while Jamison had a 20-year lease agreement on Jobing.com Arena.

It should also be noted that since the Goldwater Institute fiasco with the Hulsizer deal, every subsequent deal has been structured in a way to avoid a legal challenge by that watchdog group.

So if you’re thinking that this Forbes revelation will sabotage talks with Glendale or the NHL’s Board of Governors, just know that you were the last to enter the loop. The key players already knew, and they are still moving forward.

“The issue now is the same as it was yesterday,” Glendale councilmember Gary Sherwood said. “It’s bridging the gap on the arena management fee. I don’t know if we can get there, but we’re working on it.”

[troutman]

Joyce Clark:

http://joyceclarkunfiltered.com/figure/

Breaking it down RSE gets a $120M loan (or 70% of the purchase price of $170M) from Fortress Investment group. Unconfirmed sources say the interest rate is 9% but I have no information on the length of the loan. It gets another loan from the NHL of $80M (50% but no info on rate or length of time) and RSE puts in $45M (26% equity investment). Sources indicate that George Gosbee’s participation is $10M with minor investors contributing approximately $4M – $5M each to cover the $35M balance. But those figures total $250M you say…more than the purchase price of $170M. What’s the extra $80M for? To cover losses incurred over several years. Oh, and by the way, RSE doesn’t have to start paying the NHL for five years and they have been assured by the NHL that their revenue sharing will be “healthy.” This is a very, very sweet deal for RSE.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't know, I've yet to be invited to any NHL meetings. Evidently they have decided this is the best course of action, and as shocking as this may be for you to hear, they are actually privy to a little bit more information than you or I.

C'mon, you can't come up with one reason?

[troutman]

There could be many reasons. Let's make a list of possible reasons (please add to):

1. The NHL is sincere about exploring all possibilities before leaving a market.

2. It is important to NBC that the 6th largest market in the USA be in the NHL.

3. It is important to DAL, LA, SJ, ANA and COL, that there be another team in the SW.

4. The NHL would rather expand to QUE, than relocate there.

5. The NHL believes the PHO market has potential for growth.

6. The NHL has a desperate partner in Glendale.

7. The NHL is delaying in PHO until SEA is ready (a similar TV market to PHO).

[Brannigans Law]

It really seems like the NHL just wants to prop up the Coyotes until another western location can take them on. There's already an imbalance between East and West teams. Unless the NHL wants to do what baseball and the NFL do and have non region specific conferences. Might be a good idea.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by troutman

There could be many reasons. Let's make a list of possible reasons (please add to):

1. The NHL is sincere about exploring all possibilities before leaving a market.

2. It is important to NBC that the 6th largest market in the USA be in the NHL.

3. It is important to DAL, LA, SJ, ANA and COL, that there be another team in the SW.

4. The NHL would rather expand to QUE, than relocate there.

5. The NHL believes the PHO market has potential for growth.

6. The NHL has a desperate partner in Glendale.

7. The NHL is delaying in PHO until SEA is ready (a similar TV market to PHO).

1. They've gone beyond what any other pro league has done for a location (see NBA Seattle SSonics) and beyond what they've done for previous locations.

2. Could be but nobody from NBC has ever stated this as far as I know. If it's true, it's poor positioning to have a broadcaster tell you how to run your league.

3. Could be but if those teams want Phoenix so badly, let them foot the bill.

4. The thing is expansion, if it happens, will probably be going to two cities. There are three viable locations for the NHL and all three look promising. Much more promising than Phoenix so why isn't the franchise moving to one of these (QC)? The expansion money will still be there for Seattle and TO.

5. Well I guess they do or at least they profess they do. History doesn't back this up though.

6. Yeah, I agree the NHL has some responsibility to Glendale but business is business as evident to them holding Glendale hostage to the tune of $25M/year. I guess we'll see how desperate Glendale is although this new council seems to be approaching this matter with their brains instead of their emotions.

7. Seattle in this situation is at best a back up plan but if true the NHL (or new owner) is bargaining with Glendale in bad faith. It would be far easier and simpler to just give Seattle an expansion franchise when they are ready and move the Coyotes to QC as soon as possible.

[valo403]

You asked for potential reasons, you got a list of them. Your wholly uneducated opinion on each and everyone of them does not debunk a thing.

And again, those teams are footing the bill. You understand how the NHL operates as a business right?

[Resolute 14]

Vulcan...

1. Agreed. It is also true, however, that Glendale has gone farther than those other markets have.

2. Likewise, I agree with you that this isn't likely given the actual TV numbers. That said, the leagues - all of them - defer to their broadcast partners all the time. When networks are shelling out billions for your product, you listen to them.

3. Irrelevant. The number of ownership groups paying to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix is has no impact to you or me.

4. Competition drives up prices. It is easier to sell a market on a higher expansion price if there is a risk of not getting a team.

5. Incompetence does not generally result in growth (see also: Calgary Flames, 1996 to 2003)

6. I don't think Troutman meant this in terms of an obligation to Glendale. But rather, a view that the league can wrestle greater concessions from this city than it might others. As you say, business is business. This argument is less persuasive now than under the previous council, however.

7. That presumes Quebec is ready. Nor does it imply bad faith. The league could be legitimately trying to save the Phoenix market on the understanding that if that is not possible by the time Seattle is ready, the team relocates. Deadlines and pressure is often how these things run. (to wit: numerous government supported stadium built over the last three decades)

[troutman]

http://nebulousverbosity.com/coyotes...ndup-may-2013/

Here’s Darin Pastor’s reaction to yesterday’s Forbes report on the #Coyotes sale: “As I understood through the media, the league has chosen RSE’s proposal. After reviewing what has been reported about this proposal, I believe my offer supplies superior benefits for all parties concerned.”

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Vulcan...

1. Agreed. It is also true, however, that Glendale has gone farther than those other markets have.

2. Likewise, I agree with you that this isn't likely given the actual TV numbers. That said, the leagues - all of them - defer to their broadcast partners all the time. When networks are shelling out billions for your product, you listen to them.

3. Irrelevant. The number of ownership groups paying to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix is has no impact to you or me.

4. Competition drives up prices. It is easier to sell a market on a higher expansion price if there is a risk of not getting a team.

5. Incompetence does not generally result in growth (see also: Calgary Flames, 1996 to 2003)

6. I don't think Troutman meant this in terms of an obligation to Glendale. But rather, a view that the league can wrestle greater concessions from this city than it might others. As you say, business is business. This argument is less persuasive now than under the previous council, however.

7. That presumes Quebec is ready. Nor does it imply bad faith. The league could be legitimately trying to save the Phoenix market on the understanding that if that is not possible by the time Seattle is ready, the team relocates. Deadlines and pressure is often how these things run. (to wit: numerous government supported stadium built over the last three decades)

4. There is also Kansas City looking for a team.

5. I wouldn't say the Flames situation was due to incompetence. It's been established that most of the Canadian teams were in trouble due to the Canadian dollar being so low.

7. Quebec appears to be ready. They have approved a refurbishment of the Colisee. From what I've read previously the refurbishment can be done in time for the new season.

Per the Edmonton Journal on March 26, 2012:

Quebec city council approved recently a $7-million refurbishment of the city’s aging Colisee, built in 1949, if an NHL team is approved before the new arena is built.
Sunday’s announcement comes as the future of the Phoenix Coyotes is uncertain. Quebec City, Seattle and Kansas City could be considered as potential homes by the NHL if the league decides to move the team from Arizona.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

4. There is also Kansas City looking for a team.

5. I wouldn't say the Flames situation was due to incompetence. It's been established that most of the Canadian teams were in trouble due to the Canadian dollar being so low.

7. Quebec appears to be ready. They have approved a refurbishment of the Colisee. From what I've read previously the refurbishment can be done in time for the new season.

Who is looking to own a team in Kansas City? They have an arena, that's about it.

Whether Quebec appears to be ready or not is irrelevant. If the league wants to move into Quebec via expansion as opposed to relocation they could have a shiny new building ready to go and it wouldn't matter.

The point is that what you think would be a great move doesn't matter. The NHL has determined that this is the course of action they want to pursue and they apparently have their reasons for doing so.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by valo403

Who is looking to own a team in Kansas City? They have an arena, that's about it.

Whether Quebec appears to be ready or not is irrelevant. If the league wants to move into Quebec via expansion as opposed to relocation they could have a shiny new building ready to go and it wouldn't matter.

The point is that what you think would be a great move doesn't matter. The NHL has determined that this is the course of action they want to pursue and they apparently have their reasons for doing so.

Yeah, no kidding the NHL will do what they want. What's being looked at is their possible reasons for staying in Glendale. If you don't want to participate and just throw up your hands with the idea that "the NHL knows what it's doing and us commoners shouldn't question them", be my guest.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Yeah, no kidding the NHL will do what they want. What's being looked at is their possible reasons for staying in Glendale. If you don't want to participate and just throw up your hands with the idea that "the NHL knows what it's doing and us commoners shouldn't question them", be my guest.

This is the question you asked:

you tell me why the rest of the league finds it beneficial to lose money in Phoenix?

So please, tell me how anyone is supposed to answer that without any insider knowledge? It's all speculation. You like to sit there and pretend that you know better than people who actually have knowledge on the issues at hand, as well as hundreds of millions of dollars invested, when the fact is all you do is throw out whatever pops into your head. The NHL quite clearly has a strong motivation to stay in Glendale, likely do to a combination of many factors, both those people listed above and many others that we likely have no clue about. You saying 'NBC didn't say that' or 'the NBA didn't do that' doesn't change anything.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by valo403

This is the question you asked:



So please, tell me how anyone is supposed to answer that without any insider knowledge? It's all speculation. You like to sit there and pretend that you know better than people who actually have knowledge on the issues at hand, as well as hundreds of millions of dollars invested, when the fact is all you do is throw out whatever pops into your head. The NHL quite clearly has a strong motivation to stay in Glendale, likely do to a combination of many factors, both those people listed above and many others that we likely have no clue about. You saying 'NBC didn't say that' or 'the NBA didn't do that' doesn't change anything.

Troutman didn't have any problems putting out reasons and Resolute had some good opinions. Here I'll help you.

8. Just as when Atlanta moved there is or are other teams in more trouble than the Coyotes are and Quebec can only take one team.

[604flames]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

If it's true, it's poor positioning to have a broadcaster tell you how to run your league.

Could be way wrong on this, but I remember reading somewhere that the NHL TV deal in the "Original 12" days stipulated there had to be a team in the Bay Area, otherwise the Oakland Seals would have moved to Vancouver.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Troutman didn't have any problems putting out reasons and Resolute had some good opinions. Here I'll help you.

8. Just as when Atlanta moved there is or are other teams in more trouble than the Coyotes are and Quebec can only take one team.

I didn't realize I was required to beat Troutman is responding to your request. As he's pretty well informed on the topic I think his list is pretty thorough, so I don't really have anything to add to it.