Arm-Chair GM: Three 1st round picks for Nate McKinnon

[Stay Golden]

I would not want the Flames to trade all 3 picks for MacKinnon the 6th and the PIT pick but in this rebuild the STL pick is too valuable to have. If Feaster is a good enough negotiator if COL or FLA are truly interested in dealing then he should be able to leave the STL pick off the table.
I would rather trade one of our roster top 6 to FLA along with the 6th and or /PIT pick instead. Only if its for MacKinnon or Drouin.

[macrov]

Originally Posted by Cheerio

The point I was making doesn't have to deal with the exact spot where those players were drafted, it's more about how you think you can build the best team possible. I believe the Flames will be a bottom 5 team next year and will be able pick up a potential superstar to go along with the depth they have a chance to acquire in this draft.

Richards and Carter were both mid first round picks, and look at the price paid to acquire them. Richards was moved for a prospect who had been drafted fifth overall a couple seasons earlier. Carter was moved to Columbus for a top 10 pick and a player who had been drafted in the top 10 a few seasons earlier. If the Flames moved all their picks for MacKinnon they would have nowhere near the assets needed to acquire a very good 2C like Richards or Carter.

The flames already feel like they have one - Jankowski. I think thats what we might be overlooking. Feaster and Weisbrod feels like Jankowski is a franchise centre. If that's the case, then McKinnon-Jankowski is akin to setting up the franchise for the next 15 years the way Sakic-Forsberg did for the Avs, or Crosby-Malkin, Richards-Carter, Thorton-Marleau. Essentially you're putting 2 major building blocks in place.

If you think Brodie is a potential top 2 defense, and Baertchi is a top 3 winger, then Feaster can give up the mid and late first round picks, because we're already a long way towards the rebuild...

In 3 years, theres not a lot of holes:

Baertchi - McKinnon - ??????
Gadreau - Jankowski - Horak
Agostino - Backlund- Hudler
Hanowski - Reinhart -Neimez

Brodie - ????
Cundari - Giordano
Seilhoff - Wideman
Ramage/WortherSpoon

Its tough to find a #1 RW or Defence-Pairing with a late round pick. If the flames are awful next couple years you can fill both of those holes hopefully with top picks.

[dirk diggler]

Originally Posted by macrov

The flames already feel like they have one - Jankowski. I think thats what we might be overlooking. Feaster and Weisbrod feels like Jankowski is a franchise centre. If that's the case, then McKinnon-Jankowski is akin to setting up the franchise for the next 15 years the way Sakic-Forsberg did for the Avs, or Crosby-Malkin, Richards-Carter, Thorton-Marleau. Essentially you're putting 2 major building blocks in place.

If you think Brodie is a potential top 2 defense, and Baertchi is a top 3 winger, then Feaster can give up the mid and late first round picks, because we're already a long way towards the rebuild...

In 3 years, theres not a lot of holes:

Baertchi - McKinnon - ??????
Gadreau - Jankowski - Horak
Agostino - Backlund- Hudler
Hanowski - Reinhart -Neimez

Brodie - ????
Cundari - Giordano
Seilhoff - Wideman
Ramage/WortherSpoon

Its tough to find a #1 RW or Defence-Pairing with a late round pick. If the flames are awful next couple years you can fill both of those holes hopefully with top picks.

Is Nemitz a real prospect anymore? isnt he officially a bust?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by dirk diggler

Is Nemitz a real prospect anymore? isnt he officially a bust?

Last night Feaster spoke about how Nemisz really struggled after a very early season injury, and what sounded like some sort of incident on a road trip with the Heat, but said emphatically that Nemisz will definitely get another chance as the organization is impressed with his work ethic (mentioned he is now training in the off-season with the Gary Roberts group)

[$ven27]

Just looked him up, he's only 22? Seems like he's 27 the way people write him off already.

[moon]

Originally Posted by dirk diggler

Is Nemitz a real prospect anymore? isnt he officially a bust?

People talk about Ramo and Berra being prospects and they are much older. Cerevenka was referred to as a young prospect at times.

He is the same age as Brodie, Cundari and Bouma who are considered prospects by many (well not Brodie since he played well but he would be if still in AHL.)

He is younger than Aliu, Byron and Breen all who seem to be mentioned in terms of prospects at various times by some.

I guess the point is depends on what you think constitutes a prospect, if it is age, pro experience, upside a combination etc.

I still think he is a prospect and not yet a bust at all but his ranking and my expectations of him as a prospect are likely not nearly as high as when he was drafted.

[atb]

Interesting how Feaster mentioned about getting calls for Gaudreau. Wonder if the 6th pick + St Louis pick + Gaudreau is something Florida would look at for the 2nd.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by atb

Interesting how Feaster mentioned about getting calls for Gaudreau. Wonder if the 6th pick + St Louis pick + Gaudreau is something Florida would look at for the 2nd.

So a potential Backstrom or Staal, a potential Kariya, and a pick in the 21 slot is worth giving up for a potential Toews?

Flames should keep what they have and build toward a great team instead of worrying about a potential superstar to replace the one we just lost. We're better off with three really solid players than one star. Or did we learn nothing from the last 16 years?

[Poe969]

I wouldn't consider MacKinnon a Toews at all, I think he's more of a Crosby. Monohan is more of a Toews in my eyes.

But the answer is yes, I'd give all that up for a franchise #1 center.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by atb

Interesting how Feaster mentioned about getting calls for Gaudreau. Wonder if the 6th pick + St Louis pick + Gaudreau is something Florida would look at for the 2nd.

IIRC, the Flames have been getting calls on Johnny hockey for more than a year.
Either Feaster is hyping up the kid or there is a genuine priority interest in the guy. Cannot say I would not entertain the idea of moving him if it meant maybe the chance at moving up in this draft with the St.Louis pick to potentially get into the top ten to grab someone like Horvat or Ristolainen. That is of course if Feaster isn't hyping him up.

[ignite09]

Originally Posted by macrov

The flames already feel like they have one - Jankowski. I think thats what we might be overlooking. Feaster and Weisbrod feels like Jankowski is a franchise centre. If that's the case, then McKinnon-Jankowski is akin to setting up the franchise for the next 15 years the way Sakic-Forsberg did for the Avs, or Crosby-Malkin, Richards-Carter, Thorton-Marleau. Essentially you're putting 2 major building blocks in place.

If you think Brodie is a potential top 2 defense, and Baertchi is a top 3 winger, then Feaster can give up the mid and late first round picks, because we're already a long way towards the rebuild...

In 3 years, theres not a lot of holes:

Baertchi - McKinnon - ??????
Gadreau - Jankowski - Horak
Agostino - Backlund- Hudler
Hanowski - Reinhart -Neimez

Brodie - ????
Cundari - Giordano
Seilhoff - Wideman
Ramage/WortherSpoon

Its tough to find a #1 RW or Defence-Pairing with a late round pick. If the flames are awful next couple years you can fill both of those holes hopefully with top picks.

Only little flaw to your logic is you're assuming none of our current prospects bust. You also have a few guys in places where they haven't shown yet they'd be capable. I don't think we're nearly as far along in this rebuild as you seem to.

[atb]

Originally Posted by New Era

So a potential Backstrom or Staal, a potential Kariya, and a pick in the 21 slot is worth giving up for a potential Toews?

Flames should keep what they have and build toward a great team instead of worrying about a potential superstar to replace the one we just lost. We're better off with three really solid players than one star. Or did we learn nothing from the last 16 years?

MacKinnon has a much, much higher chance of becoming a franchise player than our pick at 6th pick or Gaudreau. It's the kind of risk you have to take, you're not going to get the 2nd pick overall without giving up reasonable assets in return.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Poe969

I wouldn't consider MacKinnon a Toews at all, I think he's more of a Crosby. Monohan is more of a Toews in my eyes.

But the answer is yes, I'd give all that up for a franchise #1 center.

Originally Posted by atb

MacKinnon has a much, much higher chance of becoming a franchise player than our pick at 6th pick or Gaudreau. It's the kind of risk you have to take, you're not going to get the 2nd pick overall without giving up reasonable assets in return.

Haven't people been listening to or reading the information coming out of the combine? There have been multiple opinions from scouts of different teams who have all indicated how wide open this draft is. There is no consensus number one pick and the gap between the guys who have been hyped for quite some time is almost non-existent. One guy admitted that the top center available on their list was Barkov and not McKinnon. It was the director of scouting for ISS who used the comparables I tossed out and was emphatic that there was no Crosby available in this draft. He stated there were players of similar quality throughout the first round and it was a very close draft. He also stated that of the players available he thinks the best fit for Calgary is Monahan. I personally don't agree with him, but I do find comfort in the fact that the top independent scouting interest has confidence in the kid.

Listening to the interview again I erred in the comparable for McKinnon. The director of scouting for ISS was emphatic there was not a Crosby available in this draft. He said McKinnon was much like Tavares and Monahan was like Staal. So, do you trade Staal, Kariya and a 1st for Tavares? Not a chance.

I think there are some star talents available in this draft but I don't see many players that are going to turn a franchise around. People have to understand this. One guy isn't going to do that. The Oilers had three straight number one picks and they still suck. According to the thinking in this thread they should have three franchise players. Instead they have only three really good players, which is what is available in this draft. There is no generational talent available according to the scouts. There is an incredibly high number of talented players available who are all very close in ability. I honestly hope Feaster does not make the mistake so many are willing to make here and blow a number of assets to move up to get a player that isn't that much better than the guy available in our slot. The Flames are an asset poor team to begin with and need to maximize our assets. Trading two of our best assets for a marginal improvement in draft position seems short sighted and a waste of good players.

[ComixZone]

...comparing Gaudreau to Kariya is a stretch. Gaudreau's height - and even more important, his weight - are HUGE mountains that will be extremely hard for him to overcome.

[PlayfulGenius]

I agree with New Era... The strength of his draft is in its depth, not necessarily in the quality of the top guy or 2 (as opposed to Ovi and Malkin going 1 and 2 in the same draft)

The Flames are currently positioned the best of all 30 teams for this draft, IMO.. I hope they don't blow it by overpaying to move up.

Moving up is fine, but use roster players to improve the picks but make sure to end up wih at least 3 in the 1st round.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

...comparing Gaudreau to Kariya is a stretch. Gaudreau's height - and even more important, his weight - are HUGE mountains that will be extremely hard for him to overcome.

Same things were said about Kariya. Same things were said about Kane. Same things were said about Sullivan. Gaudreau is a special player who has done nothing but step his game up when it mattered. Those are the guys you do everything to hold on to and don't give them up.

There is a high number of quality players at all positions through the first 60 players. Use that depth to the advantage of the team. Would McKinnon be nice? Yes. But not at the expense of other assets. The team would be further along with Lindholm, Gaudreau and Mantha (as an example) than with just McKinnon. How many years did people whine that Iggy didn't have the depth around him to succeed? Did you learn nothing from that complaining? Use the depth of this draft to build the depth that is so sorely lacking in the organization. No more home run swings until we have the runners on base to make the home run meaningful.

[moon]

Originally Posted by New Era

Haven't people been listening to or reading the information coming out of the combine? There have been multiple opinions from scouts of different teams who have all indicated how wide open this draft is. There is no consensus number one pick and the gap between the guys who have been hyped for quite some time is almost non-existent.

I have been listening and reading and haven't heard that at all. I have heard there isn't a consensus number 1 guy but that is because it is between MacKinnon and Jones, not because the guys below the top 3 are so close to them. MacKinnon is head and shoulders above the second tier of Centers in this draft (Barkov, Monahan and Lindholm) for sure.

Originally Posted by New Era

Same things were said about Kariya. Same things were said about Kane. Same things were said about Sullivan. Gaudreau is a special player who has done nothing but step his game up when it mattered. Those are the guys you do everything to hold on to and don't give them up.

Kane and Kariya were top 5 picks so when those things were said about them people still saw enough to think they would be able to be successful at the NHL level. Gaudreau was a 3rd round pick who even after the "special" seasons he has had barely cracked the TSN top 50 prospects list.

Expecting Gaudreau to be Kariya or Kane is setting up for disappointment and thinking that is legit to say that you are giving up a Staal and Kariya when talking about Monahan and Gaudreau is ridiculous.

[moon]

This also isn't the only draft to get depth and talent. The Flames look to be bad for the next 3-4 years (longer if Feaster is in charge for a while) and the main problem that we had with Iginla is no other stars around him. The Flames had plenty of second line/third line guys that you get with the 22nd and 30th picks of the draft. Keeping around 2nd line guys while not acquiring elite level talent is much more likely to result in us repeating the non-success years of the past 20 years rather than adding a potential superstar talent.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by New Era

How many years did people whine that Iggy didn't have the depth around him to succeed? Did you learn nothing from that complaining?

People were/are whining that we didn't have an elite centre to play with Iggy.

[macrov]

Originally Posted by ignite09

Only little flaw to your logic is you're assuming none of our current prospects bust. You also have a few guys in places where they haven't shown yet they'd be capable. I don't think we're nearly as far along in this rebuild as you seem to.

I agree. But I'm also assuming the flames sign 0 UFAs, which is also unlikely. And I feel that one largely cancels out the other. If a couple of the prospects don't pan out, you can fill the gaps with UFAs.

The UFA market is GREAT for your bottom 4 defense, bottom 9 forwards. But, its tough for top 2 defensemen, and awful for first line players. Most of them are resigned before they ever hit the market, and the ones that do come available are very expensive. Which also goes to my point - the first line forwards, and the top 2 defenseman should really be the priority.